Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[GBinOz]

Hmmm, I mean, there is sufficient time for all of that to happen, but things would have to go very very close to that sequence as there's not a lot of room for error. I'm certainly not saying this "had" to happen, only that if we try and chain together things like the Schwartz event, Fanny's vigil, and now Nathan Shine, we can fit them all in. When we do "fit them all in", our story becomes very precise as it starts to use up all of the time that we have to explain.

Hi Jeff,

But we also have to fit in the observed and confirmed journey of Leon Goldstein headed south down the same path at about that time, and an unconfirmed story of him being seen headed north at some unspecified time.

So we have four men turning into Berner St from Commerial Road, BSman, Schwartz, Goldstein and Shine, not to mention Parcelman and Pipeman coming from the south, and Eagle and Lave in the vicinity of the yard. Quite a cast of characters that were, bar one, not reported to have been seen by our doorstop snoopers. We have no indication in which direction BSMan departed the scene unless it is assumed that he was the man seen by Shine or heard by Mortimer. We know that Schwartz stated that he departed to the south, as did Shine's reported killer. Shine stated that he himself departed to the north towards Commercial Road, and there is another report, of disputed content, that Goldstein was observed headed north, maybe from the club, towards Commercial Road. It seems to me that Shine's story may add some weight to the sighting by the woman I call Mrs Artisan, and to Water Dew's account of Mrs Mortimer's sighting, seeing a man headed north towards the Commercial Road.

If it is to be accepted that Mrs Mortimer and Mrs TwoDoors were the same person, we need to accept that there were gaps in the "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock", one of which was immediately before the final ten minute vigil. She categorically stated "During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact" But Mrs Artisan stated "I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club." She also defined to which Socialist Club she was referring with "I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife". From this we might deduce that Mrs Artisan's sighting was in a gap prior to Mortimer's final 10 minute vigil.

So where does the Schwartz incident fit? Before 12:30, not at all, in Batty St as in Jon's hypothesis, or in one of the doorsnoop gaps? All alternatives but the latter remove Schwartz and BSMan from the equation. Blackwell estimated a TOD range starting at 12:46, but also stated that she would have bled out for several minutes, placing the actual throat cut a little earlier....about the time Mortimer heard footsteps in the street, and perhaps when Mrs Artisan saw a man with a black bag proceeding north. That would mean that Mrs Artisan came to her door just after the Schwartz incident, and saw the killer with a black bag headed north, just before Mrs Mortimer came to her door after hearing footsteps, which could have been BSMan departing, or the killer, if a separate entity. Ten to twelve minutes later Mortimer sees a man with a black bag return headed south, and look into the yard .... to check if the body had been discovered?

I'm having trouble fitting fitting the Shine story into all this. He wasn't the man with the black bag that Mortimer saw walk south and turn left into Fairclough. That had to have been Goldstein. He could have walked south during a doorsnoop gap, and been heard retreating up Berner St, but I don't think his retreat would have been in any way "measured", and the man Mrs Artisan saw, and was reported by Dew, had a black bag, like Goldstein, and it would be highly unlikely to have been anyone but Goldstein.

That concludes my latest rendition of waffle (), but a thought just occurred to me (the odds makers take another beating)....could Goldstein have actually been Parcelman?

Best regards,
George

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Jeff,

But we also have to fit in the observed and confirmed journey of Leon Goldstein headed south down the same path at about that time, and an unconfirmed story of him being seen headed north at some unspecified time.

So we have four men turning into Berner St from Commerial Road, BSman, Schwartz, Goldstein and Shine, not to mention Parcelman and Pipeman coming from the south, and Eagle and Lave in the vicinity of the yard. Quite a cast of characters that were, bar one, not reported to have been seen by our doorstop snoopers. We have no indication in which direction BSMan departed the scene unless it is assumed that he was the man seen by Shine or heard by Mortimer. We know that Schwartz stated that he departed to the south, as did Shine's reported killer. Shine stated that he himself departed to the north towards Commercial Road, and there is another report, of disputed content, that Goldstein was observed headed north, maybe from the club, towards Commercial Road. It seems to me that Shine's story may add some weight to the sighting by the woman I call Mrs Artisan, and to Water Dew's account of Mrs Mortimer's sighting, seeing a man headed north towards the Commercial Road.

If it is to be accepted that Mrs Mortimer and Mrs TwoDoors were the same person, we need to accept that there were gaps in the "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock", one of which was immediately before the final ten minute vigil. She categorically stated "During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact" But Mrs Artisan stated "I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club." She also defined to which Socialist Club she was referring with "I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife". From this we might deduce that Mrs Artisan's sighting was in a gap prior to Mortimer's final 10 minute vigil.

So where does the Schwartz incident fit? Before 12:30, not at all, in Batty St as in Jon's hypothesis, or in one of the doorsnoop gaps? All alternatives but the latter remove Schwartz and BSMan from the equation. Blackwell estimated a TOD range starting at 12:46, but also stated that she would have bled out for several minutes, placing the actual throat cut a little earlier....about the time Mortimer heard footsteps in the street, and perhaps when Mrs Artisan saw a man with a black bag proceeding north. That would mean that Mrs Artisan came to her door just after the Schwartz incident, and saw the killer with a black bag headed north, just before Mrs Mortimer came to her door after hearing footsteps, which could have been BSMan departing, or the killer, if a separate entity. Ten to twelve minutes later Mortimer sees a man with a black bag return headed south, and look into the yard .... to check if the body had been discovered?

I'm having trouble fitting fitting the Shine story into all this. He wasn't the man with the black bag that Mortimer saw walk south and turn left into Fairclough. That had to have been Goldstein. He could have walked south during a doorsnoop gap, and been heard retreating up Berner St, but I don't think his retreat would have been in any way "measured", and the man Mrs Artisan saw, and was reported by Dew, had a black bag, like Goldstein, and it would be highly unlikely to have been anyone but Goldstein.

That concludes my latest rendition of waffle (), but a thought just occurred to me (the odds makers take another beating)....could Goldstein have actually been Parcelman?

Best regards,
George

Plus we have Charles Letchford's sister who was standing at the street door around 12.50am.

The Letchford's lived at no.30 if I recall

No.30 was on the same side of the street just north of Fanny Mortimer. The house being on the corner of the alleyway that led West from Berner Street.

Letchford's statement is usually forgotten about, but it also needs to be considered.


It places Miss Letchford at the door of no.30 just a few minutes after the alleged Schwartz story.


I know researchers try to rationalize everything by trying to cram everything in, but it just cant be done.


The question is...Why?



RD

[FISHY1118]

Plus we have Charles Letchford's sister who was standing at the street door around 12.50am.

The Letchford's lived at no.30 if I recall

No.30 was on the same side of the street just north of Fanny Mortimer. The house being on the corner of the alleyway that led West from Berner Street.

Letchford's statement is usually forgotten about, but it also needs to be considered.


It places Miss Letchford at the door of no.30 just a few minutes after the alleged Schwartz story.


I know researchers try to rationalize everything by trying to cram everything in, but it just cant be done.


The question is...Why?



RD

Easy, Miss Lectchford missed the assault on Stride by 5 mins, an eternity in this case .

There is no "Alleged" Schwartz "story" as you put it , it was his sworn statement given to the police at the time which they had no issue with .

If Schwartz is to be labeled "Alleged" so must all other witnesses .

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think that we have to acknowledge the unknowns in the events that occurred between 12.30 and 1.00 that night. Apologies to all for the repetition but we have - Smith passing at an estimated time of 12.30/12.35. Fanny saying that she went onto her doorstep after hearing him (had she actually heard someone else, Eagle for example?) but how long after is an unknown, so we don’t what time. - It’s usually stated that she was there for 10 minutes but Jeff has showed us how far out humans can be in our estimations; so how long was she actually on her doorstep? It’s far from impossible that it could have been just 5 or 6 minutes, we just don’t know. - We don’t know how the Brewer’s clock was synchronised with the clocks used by Lamb and Smith. - Exactly what time did Eagle return? - How long was Lave in the yard? - How can we be sure of what time Letchford’s sister went onto her doorstep and how long was she there for? - Exactly what time did Goldstein pass?

If we looked down on any street from a drone for a random 30 minutes we would see all manner of people coming and going and all manner of events. We would see people standing and waiting for something then moving on; people chatting with each other; people arguing; someone stealing a woman’s bag and then running away; people falling, people just missing each other by seconds. All would be perfectly normal, but if we asked those involved what they had done we would get people saying that they did something at ‘around x’ when it was actually 10 minutes or more later; if we asked the two people talking to each other how long they had talked for, we might get one saying 5 minutes but the other saying 10 or more. We would get two people giving the exact same time for something and yet they didn’t see each other. We would get people saying that they heard one thing and yet they didn’t hear another thing. It would often result in an unsuccessful attempt to recreate events by simply using the given times and yet those events certainly would have occurred and no one would have lied. (Not that people couldn’t have lied of course)

The only difference in Berner Street is that a woman was murdered and so that 30 minutes receives more focus. The same kind of unknowns occurred in my scenario that occurred in Berner Street (without the murder of course) but we wouldn’t consider the scenario suspicious in any way. When we describe events in Scenario Street no one would suggest that we would be engaging in manipulation by allowing for times, inaccurate estimates, people narrowly missing each other etc but when we do this in Berner Street this tends to be the way some see attempts to describe events.

Apart from the murder these were all normal events involving normal people. They occur every minute of every day. I just think that we shouldn’t consider the events in Berner Street as if they were in any way extraordinary. As of a series of inexplicable events occurred and that they can’t have happened. These things occurred but we just can’t reconstruct them with exact timings.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

But we also have to fit in the observed and confirmed journey of Leon Goldstein headed south down the same path at about that time, and an unconfirmed story of him being seen headed north at some unspecified time.

So we have four men turning into Berner St from Commerial Road, BSman, Schwartz, Goldstein and Shine, not to mention Parcelman and Pipeman coming from the south, and Eagle and Lave in the vicinity of the yard. Quite a cast of characters that were, bar one, not reported to have been seen by our doorstop snoopers. We have no indication in which direction BSMan departed the scene unless it is assumed that he was the man seen by Shine or heard by Mortimer. We know that Schwartz stated that he departed to the south, as did Shine's reported killer. Shine stated that he himself departed to the north towards Commercial Road, and there is another report, of disputed content, that Goldstein was observed headed north, maybe from the club, towards Commercial Road. It seems to me that Shine's story may add some weight to the sighting by the woman I call Mrs Artisan, and to Water Dew's account of Mrs Mortimer's sighting, seeing a man headed north towards the Commercial Road.

If it is to be accepted that Mrs Mortimer and Mrs TwoDoors were the same person, we need to accept that there were gaps in the "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock", one of which was immediately before the final ten minute vigil. She categorically stated "During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact" But Mrs Artisan stated "I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club." She also defined to which Socialist Club she was referring with "I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife". From this we might deduce that Mrs Artisan's sighting was in a gap prior to Mortimer's final 10 minute vigil.

So where does the Schwartz incident fit? Before 12:30, not at all, in Batty St as in Jon's hypothesis, or in one of the doorsnoop gaps? All alternatives but the latter remove Schwartz and BSMan from the equation. Blackwell estimated a TOD range starting at 12:46, but also stated that she would have bled out for several minutes, placing the actual throat cut a little earlier....about the time Mortimer heard footsteps in the street, and perhaps when Mrs Artisan saw a man with a black bag proceeding north. That would mean that Mrs Artisan came to her door just after the Schwartz incident, and saw the killer with a black bag headed north, just before Mrs Mortimer came to her door after hearing footsteps, which could have been BSMan departing, or the killer, if a separate entity. Ten to twelve minutes later Mortimer sees a man with a black bag return headed south, and look into the yard .... to check if the body had been discovered?

I'm having trouble fitting fitting the Shine story into all this. He wasn't the man with the black bag that Mortimer saw walk south and turn left into Fairclough. That had to have been Goldstein. He could have walked south during a doorsnoop gap, and been heard retreating up Berner St, but I don't think his retreat would have been in any way "measured", and the man Mrs Artisan saw, and was reported by Dew, had a black bag, like Goldstein, and it would be highly unlikely to have been anyone but Goldstein.

That concludes my latest rendition of waffle (), but a thought just occurred to me (the odds makers take another beating)....could Goldstein have actually been Parcelman?

Best regards,
George

Hi George,

I have my doubts about the Shines story, but with regards to Goldstein, since he walks by (just the once in my view, heading south) during Fanny's vigil, so that would be easy enough to include since Fanny goes inside by the time of the Scwhartz event, and the Shine event is after that, and then Diemshutz arrives (and we know Fanny is inside at that time, as she hears the pony cart pass while she's inside).

So something like Fanny starts her 10 minute vigil - Goldstein heads down Berner - Fanny ends 10 minute vigil - Scwartz Event (2 minutes), Shine event (a minute?) - Diemshutz arrival. (placing the murder just before 1:00)

However, as I say, I don't really think the Shines story is legit, at least not as it has now come down to us. I was just curious as to where it would lead if we consider it worth including.

Alternatively, we could place the Schwartz and Shine event before Fanny's vigil, as that would move the murder closer to 12:45. I know there's discussion about a fair crowd of stoop watchers, but the stories all sound similar to the point of having a common story teller, rather than sound like different people talking about what event they happened to notice while out on their doorstep just before all the commotion began. I wouldn't expect every stoop snooper to, for example, recall a random person walking down the road (Goldstein). So, given the story tellers all tell the same story, albeit with details varying at times (as they do even when the same person retells things - and moreso when that story then goes through the editing process for the paper), I think we're just dealing with one stoop snoop. Of course, opinions will vary.

- Jeff

[The Rookie Detective]

Easy, Miss Lectchford missed the assault on Stride by 5 mins, an eternity in this case .

There is no "Alleged" Schwartz "story" as you put it , it was his sworn statement given to the police at the time which they had no issue with .

If Schwartz is to be labeled "Alleged" so must all other witnesses .

That's a fair point

Stride, the alleged Ripper victim etc...


There is one obvious way to incorporate Mortimer and Miss Letchford... AND Schwartz...

And that is to consider that Schwartz was the only witness who had the balls to tell the truth.


Could it be that the assault happened exactly as Schwartz said it did and at the time it did.


And the reason why Mortimer seems to be at her door at random times and for random periods of time is that she could have witnessed the same assault.

Imagine if you will, that Mortimer and Letchford and Packer were all drawn to their doors and saw BS Man assault Stride.


That would then indicate that the locals were scared of telling the police what they really saw.

As residents, Mortimer, Packer and Letchford were perhaps all aware that the club had a reputation.


And so...

Did nobody come forward and corroborate Schwartz's statement because they were too scared?


That would then strongly suggest that the man who assaulted Stride was a member of the club; perhaps Lave or Eagle.


That would then suggest that BS man then was also the man who cut her throat; because Stride would be the unluckiest woman in the world to be assaulted twice within 15 minutes.

Meaning that either the Ripper was a Jewish club member, or Stride was NOT a Ripper victim.



hmm....


Was Schwartz the only brave witness?


Or was he lying?


Was he the killer incognito?


Were Mortimer and Letchford got to, like Packer was when Le Grand was hired to put pressure on him to make up a story.



When we look at modern crime, it is a fact that if there was a gang-related stabbing on the street and the murder was seen by multiple residents; there is a high probability that witnesses would be reluctant to come forward through fear of retribution from the gang.

Most witnesses would likely say "I didn't see anything"


Just like Packer did initially


I find it interesting how Packer was seemingly singled out by Le Grand and Batchelor.



On thing is for sure though; nobody, not even the police, are able to explain why Schwartz was the only witness to the assault of Stride and why nobody saw Schwartz come and go either.

Nobody has yet to combine...

Charles Letchford
PC Smith
Eagle
Lave
Mortimer
Miss Letchford
Parcelman
Bs Man
Pipeman
Packer
Schwartz
Goldstein
The other couple
Stride

We have a time window of 12.30am - 1am

And at least 15 different people to fit into the chronology.

That's not including the Ripper of course.


well, here's a start...

Charles Letchford 12.30am
PC Smith 12.35am
Eagle 12.40am
Schwartz 12.45am
Miss Letchford 12.50am (all quiet)
Goldstein 12.55am
Diemschultz 1am


What about the other couple who were around BEFORE and AFTER the murder?

And when did Lave go as far as the street?

Where does Mortimer go into the timeline?

And Packer who watched a couple for over half an hour?

And Pipeman?

And Parcelman?

And Bs man who assaulted Stride?


And most of these witnesses never saw each other

And nobody saw or heard Stride being assaulted except for Schwartz
Nobody saw or heard anything that Schwartz saw
Nobody saw Schwartz



And yet we still have people say there's no issue with the murder of Stride.


If someone can show how this all fits in then that would be wonderful to see.


The only LOGICAL explanations are...

Multiple witnesses didn't have the courage to come forward and be as brave as Schwartz, who saw everything.

Or

Schwartz is lying for whatever reason and the other multiple witnesses are correct in their assessment that the night was quiet until the body of Stride was found.


If you believe the former and support Schwartz, then the killer was a club member, the residents were scared and Stride was not a Ripper victim unless you believe he was a club member

Or if you believe the latter, then the street was quiet, Stride was murdered in the darkness by the Ripper who had lured her there under a false pretense.


Or there is a 3rd choice...

Let's doctor the given evidence and multiple reports including inquest testimony and alter and shorten all the timings so as to try and squeeze everything in.


The argument that we should trust in what the police believed at the time is not the optimum approach, because they were mostly mistaken and wouldn't have recognized a psychopath had they have interviewed him multiple times.

The Yorkshire Ripper case is a prime example of how clueless and single-minded the senior officers can be.

In 1888, they would have been next to useless in trying to stop the Ripper.



RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Only using times as a guide….

Letchford passes at 12.30
The couple arrive just after 12.30
Smith passes at 12.32
The couple move on seconds later…so 12.32
Lave comes into the yard sees nothing…12.33
Eagle returns between 12.35 and 12.40
Lave goes back inside just after Eagle got back
The incident occurs at around 12.42
Fanny goes onto her doorstep 12.43
Couple arrive at the corner of Fairclough 12.44
Brown returns and sees them 12.45
Goldstein passes at 12.50
Fanny goes back inside 12.53
Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep 12.55
Fanny hears horse and cart 1.00
Fanny hears commotion 1.02

We could manage at least another 6 variations which account for the events.

[c.d.]

That would then suggest that BS man then was also the man who cut her throat; because Stride would be the unluckiest woman in the world to be assaulted twice within 15 minutes.

On the face of it, I would agree with that statement completely. But it needs to be put in perspective. Now if Stride had been standing in front of a church in a crowd of people on a Sunday afternoon, then yes. But the reality is that she was a lone woman standing late at night right after the pubs had closed when a lot of drunken, rough men were most likely out and about.

As for the actual "assault", we really don't have a lot to go on to really assess it. For all we know, Stride might have been the instigator by her words or actions. We don't know the intent of the B.S. man. Was he trying to seriously harm her or could it be he was simply showing annoyance and wanted to teach her a lesson of sorts? Could they have been pulling in opposite directions and their hands came apart resulting in Stride falling? Schwartz wasn't able to say what preceded the incident or what was said. So we have a very incomplete picture of what actually took place. So I think simply viewing the incident in terms of statistics and probability is a mistake. There is much more to it than that.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That would then suggest that BS man then was also the man who cut her throat; because Stride would be the unluckiest woman in the world to be assaulted twice within 15 minutes.

On the face of it, I would agree with that statement completely. But it needs to be put in perspective. Now if Stride had been standing in front of a church in a crowd of people on a Sunday afternoon, then yes. But the reality is that she was a lone woman standing late at night right after the pubs had closed when a lot of drunken, rough men were most likely out and about.

As for the actual "assault", we really don't have a lot to go on to really assess it. For all we know, Stride might have been the instigator by her words or actions. We don't know the intent of the B.S. man. Was he trying to seriously harm her or could it be he was simply showing annoyance and wanted to teach her a lesson of sorts? Could they have been pulling in opposite directions and their hands came apart resulting in Stride falling? Schwartz wasn't able to say what preceded the incident or what was said. So we have a very incomplete picture of what actually took place. So I think simply viewing the incident in terms of statistics and probability is a mistake. There is much more to it than that.

c.d.

I agree c.d. The fact that Schwartz couldn’t speak English might even have led him to misinterpret the seriousness of the incident. Maybe it was just a drunken BS man, who might even have known Stride in some way, trying to get her to go with him but she didn’t want to go? A bit of pulling and she pulled free of his grasp and ended up on the ground (as you suggest) then BS man simply berated Schwartz with a Lipski comment because BS saw him looking over and was accusing him of being nosey?

I made a suggestion in an earlier post but it didn’t get any comment. I speculated that perhaps Stride wasn’t waiting in the gateway for someone. Maybe she was walking north and as she got to the gates she saw BS man approaching (someone she wanted to avoid) so she ducked into the gateway thinking (or hoping?) that he hadn’t seen her?

We have a few possibilities and they’re all complete speculation of course but we know that the actual incident would have taken a matter of seconds so it’s not really a huge event to miss. It’s perhaps more likely statistically that BS man was her killer but it could have been the case that her killer was walking along Berner Street as the incident occurred. He might have been the ‘hero’ who scared off BS man before killing Stride. Maybe, what if, perhaps…

[The Rookie Detective]

Only using times as a guide….

Letchford passes at 12.30
The couple arrive just after 12.30
Smith passes at 12.32
The couple move on seconds later…so 12.32
Lave comes into the yard sees nothing…12.33
Eagle returns between 12.35 and 12.40
Lave goes back inside just after Eagle got back
The incident occurs at around 12.42
Fanny goes onto her doorstep 12.43
Couple arrive at the corner of Fairclough 12.44
Brown returns and sees them 12.45
Goldstein passes at 12.50
Fanny goes back inside 12.53
Letchford’s sister goes onto her doorstep 12.55
Fanny hears horse and cart 1.00
Fanny hears commotion 1.02

We could manage at least another 6 variations which account for the events.

I respect your efforts on this.


But...


What about Schwartz, Bs Man and Pipeman?

The couple can't have retuned at 12.44am for Brown to see them at 12.45am because it was at this time Schwartz witnessed the assault on Stride.


Miss Letchford was at her door at 12.50am and the street was quiet, meaning the Schwartz incident had just finished or was ongoing and she was scared to come forward.
12.55am is too late for her

Smith wouldn't have passed as early as 12.32am

Goldstein wouldn't have passed as early as 12.50am

Fanny couldn't have been on her doorstep between 12.43am - 12.53am without seeing Schwartz, Bs Man and Miss Letchford...and possible Pipeman and Stride

Unless again, she saw everything and witnessed the assault on Stride, but was scared to say anything.


Essentially you have amplified my point that either Fanny and Letchford lied about seeing nothing at 12.45am, or Schwartz lied and the entire incident never happened.

Your placing of the assault at 12.42am means that Eagle goes, Bs man arrives, Schwartz arrives, the assault happens, everyone leaves, Stride gets up and Fanny arrives on her doorstep....all in under ONE minute!

Really?!

Ironically your non-inclusion of how BS man got there, assaulted Stride, shouted Lipski and then fled the scene in time before anyone saw or heard anything is perhaps the reason why on paper your effort looks a very good attempt.

But there are at least half a dozen key errors.

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

If there was only 1 timeline possible, then that would make more sense and it should all fit together if it is the truth.

The reason why it's difficult to construct a viable timeline is because it just doesn't all fit.



RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

I respect your efforts on this.


But...


What about Schwartz, Bs Man and Pipeman?

‘The incident occurs at around 12.42.’ I was talking about the Schwartz incident.

The couple can't have retuned at 12.44am for Brown to see them at 12.45am because it was at this time Schwartz witnessed the assault on Stride.


Who says it was the same couple? Plus…I have the couple standing around the corner in Fairclough Street, out of sight if the gates. Also, how do we know that the couple didn’t see or hear anything? They never came forward..they just might not have wanted to get involved.

Miss Letchford was at her door at 12.50am and the street was quiet, meaning the Schwartz incident had just finished or was ongoing and she was scared to come forward.

Why? I have the incident at 12.42. Finished by 12.43. Nowhere near to Miss Letchford.

12.55am is too late for her

Why? Letchford said 12.55. How can 5 minutes make a difference?

Smith wouldn't have passed as early as 12.32am

He said himself…between 12.30 and 12.35.

Goldstein wouldn't have passed as early as 12.50am

Why not? He never gave a time. He simply passed at a time when Fanny was on her doorstep. In this particular scenario I have Fanny on her doorstep from 12.43 to 12.53.

Fanny couldn't have been on her doorstep between 12.43am - 12.53am without seeing Schwartz, Bs Man and Miss Letchford...and possible Pipeman and Stride

Thats why I gave the incident occurring just before she went onto her doorstep and before Letchford went onto hers.

Unless again, she saw everything and witnessed the assault on Stride, but was scared to say anything.

No need. She was indoors at the time.

Essentially you have amplified my point that either Fanny and Letchford lied about seeing nothing at 12.45am, or Schwartz lied and the entire incident never happened.

I don’t understand why you are getting this one RD. Unless you didn’t realise that when I say ‘the incident’ I mean Schwartz/BS man/Pipeman/Stride?

The placing of the assault at 12.42am means that Eagle goes, Bs man arrives, Schwartz arrives, the assault happens, everyone leaves, Stride gets up and Fanny arrives on her doorstep....all in under ONE minute!

How? I have Eagle returning between 12.35 and 12.40. With the incident at 12.42 that gives as much as 7 minutes.

Really?!

Ironically your non-inclusion of how BS man got there in time is perhaps the reason why on paper your effort looks a very good attempt.

Im now convinced that you aren’t seeing ‘the incident’ as Schwartz.

But there are at least half a dozen key errors.

Not one.

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

If there was only 1 timeline possible, then that would make more sense and it should all fit together if it is the truth.

The reason why it's difficult to construct a viable timeline is because it just doesn't all fit.



RD

It works perfectly RD and I could write others that work perfectly too. These events aren’t even approaching impossible. They can be easily explained. No mystery needed.

[Lewis C]

I respect your efforts on this.


But...


What about Schwartz, Bs Man and Pipeman?

The couple can't have retuned at 12.44am for Brown to see them at 12.45am because it was at this time Schwartz witnessed the assault on Stride.


Miss Letchford was at her door at 12.50am and the street was quiet, meaning the Schwartz incident had just finished or was ongoing and she was scared to come forward.
12.55am is too late for her

Smith wouldn't have passed as early as 12.32am

Goldstein wouldn't have passed as early as 12.50am

Fanny couldn't have been on her doorstep between 12.43am - 12.53am without seeing Schwartz, Bs Man and Miss Letchford...and possible Pipeman and Stride

Unless again, she saw everything and witnessed the assault on Stride, but was scared to say anything.


Essentially you have amplified my point that either Fanny and Letchford lied about seeing nothing at 12.45am, or Schwartz lied and the entire incident never happened.

Your placing of the assault at 12.42am means that Eagle goes, Bs man arrives, Schwartz arrives, the assault happens, everyone leaves, Stride gets up and Fanny arrives on her doorstep....all in under ONE minute!

Really?!

Ironically your non-inclusion of how BS man got there, assaulted Stride, shouted Lipski and then fled the scene in time before anyone saw or heard anything is perhaps the reason why on paper your effort looks a very good attempt.

But there are at least half a dozen key errors.

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

If there was only 1 timeline possible, then that would make more sense and it should all fit together if it is the truth.

The reason why it's difficult to construct a viable timeline is because it just doesn't all fit.



RD

Hi RD,

You ask "What about Schwartz, Bs Man and Pipeman?", but later in the post, you seemed to recognize that when Herlock said "the incident", that's what he was talking about.

In Herlock's timeline, the Schwartz incident is already over when Brown witnesses the couple, and also already over when Mortimer goes to her door.

I see no reason why Goldstein couldn't have passed as early as 12:50.

[c.d.]

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

But it is also possible that they were being truthful but not correct. In other words, they were simply mistaken as to their assessment of the time.

c.d.

[Geddy2112]

Only using times as a guide….

The Missing Evidence documentary 38m 30secs states Liz Stride had her throat cut at 12am, does that help anything?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The reason why there are so many versions is that NONE of them work when we try to incorporate all of the witnesses being correct and truthful.

But it is also possible that they were being truthful but not correct. In other words, they were simply mistaken as to their assessment of the time.

c.d.

That’s exactly it c.d. It’s only a problem if we assume that a) all estimate of times were spot on, b) that all clocks were synchronised, c) that all estimates of periods of time were spot on, and d) that all Press reports were accurate.