Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[NotBlamedForNothing]

However, I think that all of the accounts are from Fanny Mortimer.

But why the clear and obvious differences in the multiple accounts?

Well, what if the initial account was of Fanny describing a man she saw walking UP Berner Street and coming FROM the direction of the club?...

But then this is changed deliberately to alter the direction of which the man seen was travelling?

We know that the man allegedly seen walking FROM the club was reported early on; the following day in the newspapers.

But when did the alternate reports of Mortimer having seen a man walking DOWN the street TOWARDS the club appear in the press?

Well, frustratingly, the same day as the other contradictory report.

So we have a chronology issue that IF it could be resolved, may identify the correct order in which the statement/s were taken.

Here's a clue.

Morning Advertiser, Oct 1: It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

Evening News, Oct 1: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. ... He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank.
Sorry for the late reply.

Hi Jon,

No problem. You answered and that's what counts.

And, yes, seen from your viewpoint and understanding of beats, I now understand what you mean, so thanks for clearing that up.

The first problem we have with trying to guess where Smith might have been, is when we look at his testimony. Something has not been recorded correctly.
Smith described his circuitous route from the start at Gowers Walk on Comm. Rd., then east to Christian St., south to Fairclough, then east to Grove, and back along Fairclough to Back Church Lane, then north to Comm. Rd.
Yet, he also tells the inquest he walked up Berner St., if that is the case then how was he able to cover Back Church Lane, unless he then walked west on Comm. Rd. then south down Back Church Lane to Fairclough, turn around and come back up?

If that would be correct, then how would you explain how Smith got to the corner of Berner Street on Commercial Road after ‘having gone round’ his beat without being called there and that he was then passing down Berner Street without remembering seeing somebody or not?

Together with the fact that Smith said his beat took him 25 to 30 minutes, the conclusion that I draw from all this is that the normal way he walked his beat was that he entered Berner Street from Commercial Road, that he probably crossed the street near Fairclough Street and then went up Berner Street at the top of which he turned right towards Batty Street.

That’s how I read it, anyway.

I’ve played around with some ideas for Smith’s beat some years ago, including the idea that he didn’t cover a street twice. Here are two examples of that.


The first half of his beat would be the yellow line, the second half would be the blue line.


Of course, there's a multitude of ways in which he could have walked his beat, but, as far as I see, it must have contained Berner Street being covered the way I described above.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

Just to add, on the subject of men looking for a Constable:

Philip Krantz:

Were you on the look out to see if there was any stranger there? – No. I went out into the street to look for a policeman.

Hi Mike,

This is from the Daily Times of 6 October:
"When I heard the alarm I went out and saw the deceased, but did not observe any stranger there.
Did you look to see if anybody was about - anybody who might have committed the murder? - I did look. I went out to the gates, and found that some members of the club had gone for the police."

In the Morning Advertiser of the same date the last sentence is more detailed: "Two of the members had gone to look for a policeman."

So, the way I read his testimony is that he got in the yard very shortly after D & K had left it in search of a policeman, as there were no strangers (like Spooner or Mortimer) yet in the yard.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

My approach to evaluating her time is to figure that her 10 minute estimate for being at her door is probably pretty accurate, but her statement that she was at her door nearly the whole time for 30 minutes probably isn't. I would think that she would have seen more if she had been at her door that long. I think that we can figure that this 10 minute interval was sometime after Smith passed, but before Diemshutz arrived. We can also figure that the Schwartz incident couldn't have occurred while she was at her door, at least not in the location where we think that it occurred. So she doesn't seem worthless to me, because she seems to put some constraints on what's possible.

Fanny’s 10 minutes probably isn’t going to have been far off in terms of accuracy but as Jeff showed we can be poor at estimating. The problems with Fanny for me are..

In the reports where she’s quoted she doesn’t mention hearing the Constable passing or that she went onto her doorstep for ten minutes. She only said that she was on her doorstep for nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00. Where these ‘facts’ just added by the reporter because they knew that a Constable had passed and they knew that Fanny had gone onto her doorstep without seeing him (or him seeing her) and as they said the Constable passed just before 12.45 where they simply estimate 10 minutes knowing that she had said that she’d gone back indoors before 1.00?

And, if Fanny went onto her doorstep after Smith passed and spent 10 minutes or so on her doorstep before going back inside, how can 10 minutes out of 30 be described as ‘nearly the whole time?’

[Herlock Sholmes]

RD wrote this in response to George’s post:

“We know that Mortimer wasn't the wife of an Artisan. That's a fact.“

True but an ‘artisan’ isn’t a specific job. Dictionary definition”

“..a worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand.”

I think that the reporter is describing her husband, as he does her, as bit of a cut above the other locals. No unskilled labourer with never enough food on the table. A more skilled man with a trade perhaps.

Literally incorrect of course (as RD and George correctly point out) but I think it’s likely that the reporter was generalising.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Here's a clue.

Morning Advertiser, Oct 1: It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

Evening News, Oct 1: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. ... He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

Both describing the same man going in the same direction. If Fanny had seen two men she have said that she’d seen two men. This is what I mean when I talk about creating mystery where none exist.

Why do people find Leon Goldstein so interesting? He was a bloke heading home. Interviewed by the police with no issue.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Mike,

This is from the Daily Times of 6 October:
"When I heard the alarm I went out and saw the deceased, but did not observe any stranger there.
Did you look to see if anybody was about - anybody who might have committed the murder? - I did look. I went out to the gates, and found that some members of the club had gone for the police."

In the Morning Advertiser of the same date the last sentence is more detailed: "Two of the members had gone to look for a policeman."

So, the way I read his testimony is that he got in the yard very shortly after D & K had left it in search of a policeman, as there were no strangers (like Spooner or Mortimer) yet in the yard.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

Thanks. That has to have been the case.

[New Waterloo]

What about this for an idea. Please do give it some thought. The witness describes the man with the shiny bag as coming from Commercial Street, looking up at the club, walking very fast and turning at the board school. The female witness says he might have been coming from the Socialist Club and that a good many young men go there especially on a Saturday night. Is she talking of the Socialist Club on Commercial Road. Have we discovered Nathan Shine??

Was he walking fast past Dutfields yard because he had seen the murder

I know it is suggested he was going the wrong way to his home but worth a thought maybe

NW

[The Rookie Detective]

Both describing the same man going in the same direction. If Fanny had seen two men she have said that she’d seen two men. This is what I mean when I talk about creating mystery where none exist.

Why do people find Leon Goldstein so interesting? He was a bloke heading home. Interviewed by the police with no issue.

Ah but that isn't correct Herlock.

These 2 articles have the same man (you are correct) but they are travelling in OPPOSITE directions.

That is why there is a major discrepancy with Goldstein and Mortimer.

We can't have the same man going in different directions at the same time and so that forms the basis of what some of us are trying to say.

if all varying reports had the same man going in the same direction then there would be no issue, but reading both articles we can clearly see that we have the man with the bag going in the opposite direction.


And it's not where the man is going that counts; it's where he was coming from; ergo, the club/murder site


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ah but that isn't correct Herlock.

These 2 articles have the same man (you are correct) but they are travelling in OPPOSITE directions.

That is why there is a major discrepancy with Goldstein and Mortimer.

We can't have the same man going in different directions at the same time and so that forms the basis of what some of us are trying to say.

if all varying reports had the same man going in the same direction then there would be no issue, but reading both articles we can clearly see that we have the man with the bag going in the opposite direction.


And it's not where the man is going that counts; it's where he was coming from; ergo, the club/murder site


RD

It’s just two different reporters, one using ‘up’ the other using down. Fanny herself says: “I only noticed one person passing..” How could she have seen two men but only mention seeing one? And both were carrying a black bag? Undoubtedly the same guy.

In the street where I live some will say ‘up the road’ and some will say ‘down the road’ but they’re both talking about the same direction.

[JeffHamm]

What about this for an idea. Please do give it some thought. The witness describes the man with the shiny bag as coming from Commercial Street, looking up at the club, walking very fast and turning at the board school. The female witness says he might have been coming from the Socialist Club and that a good many young men go there especially on a Saturday night. Is she talking of the Socialist Club on Commercial Road. Have we discovered Nathan Shine??

Was he walking fast past Dutfields yard because he had seen the murder

I know it is suggested he was going the wrong way to his home but worth a thought maybe

NW

Hi New Waterloo,

I've gone down a similar line of thought in the past, the idea being that if Stride is killed before Fanny is on her doorstep then Goldstein may have looked at the club because something caught his eye, say something lying by the gate. Probably not JtR as Fanny would see JtT when he leaves. The closer to 1:00 Fanny's vigil ends, the more appealing that notion becomes. And the more appealing that becomes, the more one could consider the footsteps she heard being Broad Shoulders, which she mistakes for PC Smith, making the Schwartz evet prior to her coming out.

But, given the messiness of the news reports, and the number of people to fit in, there will be problems for that idea. But all ideas have their problems, so we do our best to try and find the version with the least set of problems, where the problems can also be made sense of (i.e. it is clear Spooner's stated time must be wrong).

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Fanny’s 10 minutes probably isn’t going to have been far off in terms of accuracy but as Jeff showed we can be poor at estimating. The problems with Fanny for me are..

In the reports where she’s quoted she doesn’t mention hearing the Constable passing or that she went onto her doorstep for ten minutes. She only said that she was on her doorstep for nearly the whole time between 12.30 and 1.00. Where these ‘facts’ just added by the reporter because they knew that a Constable had passed and they knew that Fanny had gone onto her doorstep without seeing him (or him seeing her) and as they said the Constable passed just before 12.45 where they simply estimate 10 minutes knowing that she had said that she’d gone back indoors before 1.00?

And, if Fanny went onto her doorstep after Smith passed and spent 10 minutes or so on her doorstep before going back inside, how can 10 minutes out of 30 be described as ‘nearly the whole time?’

I agree that the reports seem to be inconsistent with each other. It must be that either Fanny changed her story, or, what I think is more likely, at least one of the journalists didn't report exactly what she said. Since the 10 minute report fits better with the other evidence, I've thought that the reporter that said 30 minutes didn't get it right, but you raise an interesting possibility: maybe the other journalist "fixed" Fanny's statement because he could see that what she was saying didn't seem to be quite right.

[GBinOz]

It’s just two different reporters, one using ‘up’ the other using down. Fanny herself says: “I only noticed one person passing..” How could she have seen two men but only mention seeing one? And both were carrying a black bag? Undoubtedly the same guy.

In the street where I live some will say ‘up the road’ and some will say ‘down the road’ but they’re both talking about the same direction.

Easy. Two different women at different addresses seeing the same person walking in a different direction, at a different time, but neither seeing him both times.

If Fanny was interviewed by three different reporters, why do her stories to each not contain even the slightest detail in common? The "Occam's Razor" solution is that there were three women. This negates the need to propose that "up" means "down", two doors means four doors, or that car man is actually an artisan occupation.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

It’s just two different reporters, one using ‘up’ the other using down. Fanny herself says: “I only noticed one person passing..” How could she have seen two men but only mention seeing one? And both were carrying a black bag? Undoubtedly the same guy.

In the street where I live some will say ‘up the road’ and some will say ‘down the road’ but they’re both talking about the same direction.

But I am not referring to UP or DOWN the road, I am referring to the documented phrase that specifically includes the term... "FROM the club".

Therefore, with Mortimer's position north of the club and the man she saw with the black bag coming from the club, it means she saw him walking NORTH toward her and away from the murder site, meaning it's likely the man with the black bag was the Ripper.

OR

The other reports that state she saw the man walk past the club and turn past the board school.

This version means that the man with the black bag was walking SOUTH and directly past the murder site and then around the corner to face EAST along Faircloth Street.


Interestingly, the term DOWN the road ONLY appears in the statement which refers to the man walking past the club and around the corner

And the term UP the road ONLY appears in the statement which refers to the man having walked FROM the direction of the club and towards Mortimer.


That direct correlation thus proves that the terms UP and DOWN are consistent with each of the respective accounts that associate directly with the given direction the man was walking.


The term "FROM" the club is the one piece of Mortimer's witness account that implies she saw the killer as he left the scene of the murder.

It may be inconvenient, but the varying accounts suggested as coming from Mortimer are directly opposite in contrast in terms of the stated direction the man with the black bag was seen travelling.



RD

[The Rookie Detective]

So, just to clarify...

DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS...


Morning Advertiser, Oct 1: It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the board school.

(Walking South from Mortimer's position, past the murder site, and into Faircloth Street)




Evening News, Oct 1: I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand. ... He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming FROM the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially.

(Walking North from the direction of the club towards Mortimer's position)



Inconvenient, but this is what was stated IF both accounts are from Mortimer




RD