Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And, thanks to Frank”s post #304 we have this:

Irish Times of October 1:

"The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.”

So we now have:

Blackwell arrived 1.16
Lamb despatches Eagle who gets to LS Station at 1.10 (a walk of 6 minutes…but a fast walk/run…no problem)
Lamb arrived 10 minutes earlier than Blackwell so around 1.06
Eagle would have seen Lamb around a minute for their arrival at the yard, so around 1.05
This has Diemschitz returning at around 1.00

You might have noted that Frank agrees with me that Smith was at least 2½ minutes behind Lamb, but probably more like 3 or 4. So, given your 1:06 estimate for Lamb, and Smith's 25-30-minute beat, it would seem that Smith was last passing the gateway to the yard at some point between 12:40-45.

It all fits….annoying isn’t it.

Annoyingly for some, this also fits...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

So, given the implications of your own timeline, what are you going to do with Schwartz now? It seems you will either have to give up on him or place the incident prior to Smith.

[FrankO]

Would there have been any industrial noise in the area?

I have no idea, although I don't thinks so. But I just think that, if he was as near to Berner Street as Lamb was when Eagle & Kozebrodski came running and shouting, it would be very odd if Smith wouldn't have heard or seen a thing. Since he didn't, we can safely assume Smith wasn't as near to Berner Street on Commercial Road as Lamb was when he saw & heard the 2 men.

Look Herlock, Frank is suggesting dishonesty; that Smith must have lied!

I'm not saying that Smith must have lied, all I'm suggesting is that the reason he didn't hear anything of the fuss going on, could have been because he was somewhere inside having a cuppa, not that this would have any influence on the time it took to finish his beat this time around. He would have just skipped some parts to regain the time spent drinking.

[FISHY1118]

You might have noted that Frank agrees with me that Smith was at least 2½ minutes behind Lamb, but probably more like 3 or 4. So, given your 1:06 estimate for Lamb, and Smith's 25-30-minute beat, it would seem that Smith was last passing the gateway to the yard at some point between 12:40-45.



Annoyingly for some, this also fits...

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so.

So, given the implications of your own timeline, what are you going to do with Schwartz now? It seems you will either have to give up on him or place the incident prior to Smith.

It may well fit ,However can it be substantiated ? Has anyone else verified her claim ?, Has it been proven as fact ? , Do you have a sourse for the statement ? Is it an Official Document like Schwartz recorded by Swanston? Is it hearsay ?, Is it a Newspaper Article ?.

Schwartzs isnt going Anywhere until such ''Important Statements'' like the one above are fully explored as to there legitamacy .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Just wanted to explore some of this a bit. In an earlier post I suggested that men start running around 2 minutes after Deimshutz's arrival. During the run along Fairclough to Grove is when Spooner joins them, so he would arrive at the yard at the time those runners get back.


I measured the distance at 605 feet, so for the round trip, that's 1210 feet. At an average running pace (6.1 mph) that would require 2m 15s, getting Spooner at the yard around 1:04 (1:04:15 if you want to go to that precision).

PC Lamb we've estimated arrives around 1:06, so so roughly 2 m, or 1m 45 seconds, later by these calculations.

and if we go back to that table with regards to the ranges of true intervals that people will estimate at 5 minutes, we see that the true interval is somewhere between 1m 38s and 15m 06s, spanning our estimated interval. Even though we are at the shorter end of that range (especially if you focus on the high precision estimate), given we're estimating everything here, that's still a pretty impressive outcome. In in the end, being inside the range does not require further justification beyond that our estimations and Spooner's statement do not conflict. It may be hard to accept that two values can be different and yet still be considered acceptably similar, but most people are not used to dealing with measurement variability and only look at the exact values, but that is how you get stuck like a deer in the headlights. Measurement variability, while in one sense is a very simple concept, but on the other hand I find it is one of the hardest things to help get my student's heads around.

So, while Spooner's estimate of the clock time itself seems to be off, his estimate of the interval between his arrival and PC Lamb's arrival is within the ranges we would expect based upon our attempts at recreation, and that latter finding further points to his main error is indeed with regards to the time "o'clock". If he had spent a bunch of the night at the pub, perhaps there's an explanation for that?

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

You’ve explained things as lucidly as ever, thanks. It confirms what Frank suggested some time ago - that we should focus less on times and more on the order of events and the circumstances. We can get needlessly bogged down and distracted by saying so and did x at 12.30 therefore the next guy must have done y at 12.30 and 30 seconds or 12.31….and on it goes. Saying that…looking at times..

Spooner said:

“On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along”

So pubs closed at 12.00. I’m not sure what time they actually stopped serving beer but let’s assume it was earlier than 12.00 but Spooner could still have been a straggler who left the pub with his girlfriend at 12.10 (it could have been later) Maybe they stood chatting for ten minutes, so it’s now 12.20. Then they stroll the short distance, perhaps stopping for a kiss or two. So it’s not a massive stretch to say that they could have got to the Beehive by around 12.30. He estimate that they stood there for 25 minutes (a slightly strange estimation imo?) but that gets them to 12.55. He’s around 7 minutes out. With the accumulation of estimated times a difference of 30 minutes isn’t a strange as it might first appear.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Swanson? So, Goldstein was investigated but they forgot to ask him what time he was on Berner St?

The clue to what - that we can cling to the faint hope of Mortimer locking up by 12:45?



The relevant section of Swanson's report begins; From enquiries made it was found that at:-
The timeline in Swanson's report is owing to the times in the respective witness statements. It's revealing that you deny this.

They undoubtedly would have asked him the time I’d have though but whether he could give them an exact answer is another matter. He might have said “I’m not sure but it was sometime around 1.00.”

[FrankO]

Good post with lots of interesting things to think about.

Thanks, Jeff.

But since we can't know those details, the best we can do is estimate how far away he would need to be to miss the shouts of the men, then work out what locations fit that estimate.

I think so, too.

The men going to Commercial might not have shouted until arriving at Commercial ans spotting the police to the east. But that seems unlikely.

That seems unlikely, indeed.

There’s this snippet from the East London Advertiser of 6 October:
“His friend Diemstitz and another member of the club went for a policeman, and he himself immediately ran to Commercial-road Police-station. They were all shouting out "Murder, murder! Police, police!" He found two constables at the top of Grove-street, Commercial-road. He was terribly excited and shouted out to them: "Oh there has been another terrible murder of a woman in Berner-street!"”

And this is from the Irish Times of 1 October:
“When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!"”

I have always assumed the turned east, as if they turned west I would think they would have run into PC Smith.

True, but if we assume that Kozebrodski had to catch up with Eagle - and from the evidence it doesn’t seem that these 2 men only joined together at the top of Batty Street – we have to allow some time for this to happen. Also, Eagle is stated to have said “We could not find one [policeman] at first”. This, of course, could be a reference to no policeman being found along Fairclough Street, but it might also be referring to his own search.

If we’d assume it referred to his own search and then combine those two things, Eagle first turning left would fit. It would give Kozebrodski time to catch up with him and it would fit with his remark that they couldn’t find a policeman at first.

Of course, these are suppositions of mine and not facts.

And if that is what he was doing, then the men could have first gone west, failed to find Smith on his break, only to then find Lamb to the east. That, though, would push Lamb's arrival further out, but maybe not by all that much, and maybe I over estimated other events prior to their departure.

If he/they would have ran as far as Backchurch Lane, then some 120 m/395 ft has to be added. At a speed of 10.8 kmph/6.7 mph, 40 seconds then has to be added.

Hmm, lots to think about indeed. Thanks for that.

You're welcome.

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, that is not what I said, which was...



The commotion is not the incident.

You're wanting to substitute the particulars we have with "something as everyday as someone hearing one thing but not another". Why do prefer generics to specifics?

I'm pretty sure non-existent witnesses could neither backup nor contradict his story, which is convenient.

As for your personal intuitions as to what the man going by the name of Israel Schwartz would or would not have done, I'm not interested.

If that is so, then you should be able to quote me displaying that reluctance. Do I display that reluctance in #282?



What rot. I clearly state in #282 that Smith and Diemschitz cannot both be at the top of Berner St at 1am. That is hardly controversial. I then state that there are essentially four ways of dealing with the anomaly, namely:

- Assume Smith was right and Diemschitz was wrong
- Assume that Diemschitz was right, and Smith was wrong
- Split the difference
- Ignore the difference


What mental gymnastics did you perform to get 'lied' out of 'wrong'? The irony of your ridiculous claim that I'm suggesting that Diemschitz lied about the time, is that I don't even state in that post which of the first 3 options I favour. By your 'logic', I could also be suggesting that Smith lied. Why not accuse me of that too?

I’m not going to waste time responding to this post for two reasons, 1) I’m a little tired of this kind of stroppiness “As for your personal intuitions as to what the man going by the name of Israel Schwartz would or would not have done, I'm not interested.”

2) I’m also getting increasingly tired of this kind of quibbling which amounts to nothing more than obfuscation. It’s pointless. We know what happened. Diemschitz passed a clock that said 1.00 (this should be taken as close to a 100% fact as possible, allowing for the fact the it’s physically possible that a human being can lie) then a short time later Eagle met Lamb in Commercial Road followed by them going to Dutfield’s Yard. A short time later Smith arrived.

The times don’t matter. This is what happened. That should be the end of it. It’s a done deal.

[Herlock Sholmes]

When Kozebrodski and Diemschitz ran into Fairclough Street they were shouting and looking for a Constable and they were running away from wherever Smith was. We have no way of knowing how many times they shouted ‘murder’ or ‘help’ or whatever so we can’t say that they were shouting something every couple of seconds.

Smith was never asked at the inquest if he’d heard Diemschitz and Kozebrodski so how do we know that he hadn’t heard them? Perhaps he didn’t respond because either a) he thought that a Constable closer to them would have dealt with it and that murder was a regular cry in Whitechapel, or b) he heard someone shouting in the distance but couldn’t make out what was being said (remember that English wasn’t the two men’s first language so they would have been pronouncing their words with an accent)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Those that believe that clocks were all perfectly synchronised look away now..


Diemschitz passes the Brewer’s clock which says 1.00

(At that time Smith, on his beat, has 12.54 by the clock that he used)


Eagle goes to look for a PC at 1.02 (Diemschitz time) (12.56 Smith time)


Eagle finds Lamb and starts back at 1.03 (Diemschitz time) (12.57 Smith time)


Eagle and Lamb get to the yard at 1.04 (Diemschitz time) (12.58 Smith time)


Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 (Smith time) (1.06 Diemschitz time)


Smith takes 90 seconds to arrive at the yard as per times from Frank/Jeff, so 1.01 and 30 seconds (Smith time) (1.07 and 30 seconds Diemschitz time)




Therefore….Diemschitz passes the clock at 1.00 as per his statement. Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 as per his statement and arrives at the yard 3½ minutes after Lamb.

[FrankO]

When Kozebrodski and Diemschitz ran into Fairclough Street they were shouting and looking for a Constable and they were running away from wherever Smith was. We have no way of knowing how many times they shouted ‘murder’ or ‘help’ or whatever so we can’t say that they were shouting something every couple of seconds.

Smith was never asked at the inquest if he’d heard Diemschitz and Kozebrodski so how do we know that he hadn’t heard them? Perhaps he didn’t respond because either a) he thought that a Constable closer to them would have dealt with it and that murder was a regular cry in Whitechapel, or b) he heard someone shouting in the distance but couldn’t make out what was being said (remember that English wasn’t the two men’s first language so they would have been pronouncing their words with an accent)

Hi Mike,

I don't know if the above is a reaction to one of my recent posts, but if so, then I wasn't really referring to the noise made by these 2 blokes.

I think that, when their noise hit the streets and went eastwards along Fairclough, Smith would have been moving up in Backchurch and would probably have been in the upper half of it at that point. Too far away to hear any of that, it seems to me.

I was rather referring to the noise Eagle and possibly Kozebrodski were making and talking about the fact that Smith didn't see or hear anything of Lamb & Co, nor anything of PC 426 H going for the doctor's, nor Lamb's whistle (which would seem a futher-carrying sound than the sound of shouting).

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

Those that believe that clocks were all perfectly synchronised look away now..


Diemschitz passes the Brewer’s clock which says 1.00

(At that time Smith, on his beat, has 12.54 by the clock that he used)


Eagle goes to look for a PC at 1.02 (Diemschitz time) (12.56 Smith time)


Eagle finds Lamb and starts back at 1.03 (Diemschitz time) (12.57 Smith time)


Eagle and Lamb get to the yard at 1.04 (Diemschitz time) (12.58 Smith time)


Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 (Smith time) (1.06 Diemschitz time)


Smith takes 90 seconds to arrive at the yard as per times from Frank/Jeff, so 1.01 and 30 seconds (Smith time) (1.07 and 30 seconds Diemschitz time)




Therefore….Diemschitz passes the clock at 1.00 as per his statement. Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 as per his statement and arrives at the yard 3½ minutes after Lamb.

Give or take the odd minute here or there, this would work for me, Mike. Although I would not necessarily attach any times on the clock to it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Give or take the odd minute here or there, this would work for me, Mike. Although I would not necessarily attach any times on the clock to it.

Hi Frank,

Thanks for clearing up in your previous post.

Yes I mentioned earlier your suggestion of viewing the events in order rather than stressing over attaching times to each action. I think that’s the best approach as there’s no way that any of us can prove/evaluate times and when times are mentioned the accusations of ‘moving tines to suit’ comes out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The two witnesses that conflict in actions are Morris Eagle and Isaac Kozebrodsky.

Eagle:

“I went down in a second and struck a match, when I saw a woman lying on the ground in a pool of blood, near the gates. Her feet were towards the gates, about six or seven feet from them. She was lying by the side of and facing the club wall. When I reached the body and struck the match another member was present.
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No. As soon as I struck the match I perceived a lot of blood, and I ran away and called the police.“

Kozebrodsky:

“When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers”

Diemschitz:

“..Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.”

Spooner:

“..when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police.”

…

It’s difficult to escape that it reads as Eagle and Diemschitz/Kozebrodski left to look for a policeman at pretty the same time (give or take a few seconds). Kozebrodski said that headed out with Diemschitz and then went with Eagle which, if correct, would have meant that Eagle must have left close to 2 minutes after Diemschitz and Kozebrodski headed into Fairclough Street.

Lamb did say that 2 men approached him but it’s never mentioned who the second man was:

“..when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them.”

So…what actually happened. A suggestion with apologies to those who prefer possible explanations to involve lies:


Diemschitz goes into the front room of the club where he finds his wife. He tells the members about the body, grabs a candle from one of the tables and goes back outside. He could see the blood by the light of the candle before he even reached the body (as he said) and left for a Constable immediately.

Now, speculation time….how long before one of the members, Gilleman, decides to go and tell the members upstairs who were unaware of what was going on downstairs? Could it have been a minute? Bit less, bit more? A complete unknown of course but Eagle comes downstairs and gets into the yard let’s speculate that it’s minute or 60 or even 90 seconds after Diemschitz has gone.

He gets outside to look at the body but perhaps he can’t get a good look straight away? Remember what Diemschitz said:

“There were several members in the front room of the club.”

So several members have got there before him and are probably crowding around the body. A few seconds later Eagle gets to see the body by striking a match. He sees the blood and decides to go for a Constable. It’s now a couple of minutes after Diemschitz had gone with Kozebrodski. As Eagle gets to the gate Diemschitz, Kozebrodsky and Spooner return. They tell Eagle that they haven’t found a Constable so Eagle says that he’ll try in Commercial Road. Kozebrodski goes with him and he and Eagle meet Lamb in Commercial Road.

It covers the facts as far as I can see.

Calm responses?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I have no idea, although I don't thinks so. But I just think that, if he was as near to Berner Street as Lamb was when Eagle & Kozebrodski came running and shouting, it would be very odd if Smith wouldn't have heard or seen a thing. Since he didn't, we can safely assume Smith wasn't as near to Berner Street on Commercial Road as Lamb was when he saw & heard the 2 men.

Seems reasonable.

I'm not saying that Smith must have lied, all I'm suggesting is that the reason he didn't hear anything of the fuss going on, could have been because he was somewhere inside having a cuppa, not that this would have any influence on the time it took to finish his beat this time around. He would have just skipped some parts to regain the time spent drinking.

Makes sense, and of course you're not saying that Smith must have lied. I was just taking the mickey.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The times don’t matter. This is what happened. That should be the end of it. It’s a done deal.

Follows up with...

Those that believe that clocks were all perfectly synchronised look away now..


Diemschitz passes the Brewer’s clock which says 1.00

(At that time Smith, on his beat, has 12.54 by the clock that he used)


Eagle goes to look for a PC at 1.02 (Diemschitz time) (12.56 Smith time)


Eagle finds Lamb and starts back at 1.03 (Diemschitz time) (12.57 Smith time)


Eagle and Lamb get to the yard at 1.04 (Diemschitz time) (12.58 Smith time)


Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 (Smith time) (1.06 Diemschitz time)


Smith takes 90 seconds to arrive at the yard as per times from Frank/Jeff, so 1.01 and 30 seconds (Smith time) (1.07 and 30 seconds Diemschitz time)




Therefore….Diemschitz passes the clock at 1.00 as per his statement. Smith gets to the corner at 1.00 as per his statement and arrives at the yard 3½ minutes after Lamb.

The times don't matter ... in theory.