Berner Street: No Plot, No Mystery

[FrankO]

If you accept Smith's claim that he was last in Berner St in the 12:30-35 region, you must also accept that he was about to re-enter the street at 1am. You can't cherry-pick and can't suppose that Diemschitz was about to do the same thing. Your problem is that you need the extra minutes to make your theory work - in other words, to justify your belief in the claims of Israel Schwartz.

If I may, Andrew...

Whatever the case, Smith only arrived at the crime scene after PC Collins had arrived there. So, Lamb had arrived with PC 426H and Eagle, then Lamb sent PC 426H for the doctor's and Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn, then he whistled and then, as a result, Collins arrived - and then Smith arrived. So, at whatever time one wishes to have Diemshutz arrive to discover Stride, Smith follows some minutes later.

If one really wants to attach times to that, then we have to consider a time between Diemshutz arriving and Eagle running towards Commercial Road, then there's the time to consider that it would have taken Eagle to run out of the yard & return with Lamb & PC 426H, then there was some time between them arriving and Lamb sending PC 426H and Eagle away. These are the minimum of things we'd have to consider, as Collins may well have arrived while PC 426H was still running for the doctor and Smith may not have seen PC 426H because the latter didn't run north up Berner Street, but took another route. I would say that a minimum between Diemshutz arriving and Smith arriving would be 3 minutes, although that's quite probably too much of a cut back/shave.

Also, I think it would be better to speak of sequence rather than actual times/timings.

Cheers,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Lave is assumed to have reached the gates after Smith sees Stride, a second or two at that location would be enough for him to have noticed Stride standing right next to him. Apparently, she wasn't. Nor was she there when Eagle returned to the club. If we can work out a sequence that works, then where do these two men fit into it, and when does this standing in gateway episode commence?

I’ll go with Lave being in the yard from around 12.30 until around 12.40 and with the fact that he must have moved around and hadn’t stood at one spot - which is confirmed by the fact that Smith certainly passed and Lave didn’t see him. I’d also point out that Lave didn’t say that he didn’t see anyone…only that he saw nothing unusual. What would be unusual about a man and a woman talking in the street?:

Lave goes into the yard at approx 12.30 and sees nothing unusual (perhaps he sees the couple, perhaps they weren’t there yet? Perhaps he saw them in the distance walking along?)
He goes back inside the yard and the couple walk along Berner Street arriving at approx 12.31/2.
Smith passes at say 12.33/4 and sees them.
After he passes the couple move on.
At this point Lave is either somewhere near to the printing office or he’s in the loo (making his surname apt).
At approx 12.35 Eagle returns unseen by Lave. The gateway area was dark remember.
At approx 12.39/40 Lave goes back inside the club, possibly after a last glance into the deserted street.

Couple - tick.
Smith - tick.
Lave seeing nothing unusual or nothing at all - tick.
Eagle returning unseen by Lave - tick.

No subterfuge required.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe the one good thing that has been happening on this thread is that people have expressed doubt about a status quo acceptance of the times given by all the witnesses. That much everyone who has read about this case knows....when assembled the times... as given by ALL the witnesses, do not produce a viable timeline of events for that night.

The answer for some seems to be to arbitrarily just alter some of the recorded times as they see fit...to make whatever witness time they are using acceptable. For example You cant have Issac K and Heschberg and Spooner contradict Louis arriving at 1 by 20 minutes, so some just suggest that those three witness were all wrong by the same amount of time. Like that seems the reasonable approach. Some people believe that the actions taken by witnesses took a very, very brief time,..... like Louis arriving at 1 and suddenly Lamb and Eagle suddenly being there at that time.

These same people do not account for the time it took;

-to get down off a cart and examine something on the ground with a match for light
-to then rush indoors to the main floor, then to call upstairs and have multiple people descend to see what was up
-then to gather around the woman, some checking to see if she is breathing, some discussing what problems this may cause, some looking to see if they recognize her...
-more people gather around, Louis tells Issac K to go get help, Eagle says he will go and try and find a policeman too, then Louis and Issac[s] run for help too..past Spooner
-As Louis and Issac[s] are returning... finding no-one.... Spooner then joins them back to the gates
-Spooner is there for 5 minutes before the police arrive
-Lamb arrives, having seen Eagle calling for help. Issac K joins them as they return.

Lamb says this was at either "just before 1", or "around" 1. As anyone without agendas can see, all those activities in red would take approximately 5-10 minutes minimum. Perhaps more, but for the sake of this discussion, 5-10 minutes. Its a 5 minute interval on the clock from when Spooner arrives to when Lamb arrives. So then how long for the notifications, gathering, search party dispatch and Spooner returning with them. 5 minutes? 5-10?

By using Louis Diemshitz stated arrival time of "precisely" 1am, (it is said he was adamant about that time), and adding the 5-10 minutes before Lamb arrives...then what time is the earliest Lamb could have been there with Eagle and Issac K? Thats right, as late as 1:10-1:15. 10-15 minutes later than he stated. And no-one has even left to call Johnson yet. Yet Johnson says he is there at 1:10. And Blackwell at 1:16.

Confused? Anyone who isnt hasnt been paying attention, or has been blind to the details. Or has bias.

Louis could not have arrived at 1. Period. So... would the individuals who constantly misconstrue the facts and offer their own substitutions for many of the witnesses stated times of events, please dont argue that their subjective time substitutions are preferable to the known facts.

You have reliable witnesses as milestones here. PC Smiths sighting at 12:35. Lamb seeing Eagle at just before, or 1am. Johnson at 1:10, Blackwell at 1:16. When there is a quote that says "just before" Herlock, it means 1 source recorded it as such. You are not to decide which is the real time when the 2 different times are quoted. The facts can dictate that,...but thanks anyway. Ive included both.

Louis stated arrival time is a lie, proven by the fact that all those reliable milestones do not work with him arriving that late.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I believe the one good thing that has been happening on this thread is that people have expressed doubt about a status quo acceptance of the times given by all the witnesses. That much everyone who has read about this case knows....when assembled the times... as given by ALL the witnesses, do not produce a viable timeline of events for that night.

Something that everyone has always known and no one has ever doubted. There’s only you that thinks that it’s because of a plot though. 99.9% accept that it’s simply down to perfectly normal errors of timing.

The answer for some seems to be to arbitrarily just alter some of the recorded times as they see fit...to make whatever witness time they are using acceptable. For example You cant have Issac K and Heschberg and Spooner contradict Louis arriving at 1 by 20 minutes, so some just suggest that those three witness were all wrong by the same amount of time. Like that seems the reasonable approach. Some people believe that the actions taken by witnesses took a very, very brief time,..... like Louis arriving at 1 and suddenly Lamb and Eagle suddenly being there at that time.

Yet again, proving that you have an issue with accepting any margin for error on times unless it suits your own purpose.

These same people do not account for the time it took;

-to get down off a cart and examine something on the ground with a match for light.

15 seconds tops.

-to then rush indoors to the main floor, then to call upstairs and have multiple people descend to see what was up

The suggestion that Diemschitz called upstairs is an invention that you keep repeating. Nowhere does it say that he called upstairs. He specifically said that he told the men in a downstairs room which he would have passed anyway. He didn’t have to go out of his way. It was those in the downstairs room, specifically Gilleman, who then went upstairs to tell the members up there what had occurred. So going inside, grabbing a candle and telling some men that there was a body in the yard is again the work of seconds.

-then to gather around the woman, some checking to see if she is breathing, some discussing what problems this may cause, some looking to see if they recognize her...

More inventions and exaggerations. Diemschitz made no mention of people checking to see if she was breathing or if they could recognise her. Even Eagle said that he just struck a match, saw the blood and went for a Constable. No one would have discussed what problems this would have caused because this is a figment of your plot theory, which clearly never happened. Diemschitz actions couldn’t have taken more than seconds without inventing things that didn’t happen.

-more people gather around, Louis tells Issac K to go get help, Eagle says he will go and try and find a policeman too, then Louis and Issac[s] run for help too..past Spooner

More invention. You’ve added a non-existent second wave of onlookers simply to stretch out the time. Do you honestly believe that anyone will fall for this Michael?

So from arriving, to Louis leaving the yard - 2 minutes. I reckon it could have taken even less but I’d be prepared to stretch to 3 minutes at a push.

-As Louis and Issac[s] are returning... finding no-one.... Spooner then joins them back to the gates

-Spooner is there for 5 minutes before the police arrive

-Lamb arrives, having seen Eagle calling for help. Issac K joins them as they return.

Lamb says this was at either "just before 1", or "around" 1.

Hurrah! You’ve finally forced yourself to mention ‘around 1.00!’ It’s progress at least. But you can’t go as far as admitting that 7 reports said ‘around 1.00’ and only one said ‘just before 1.00’ which makes ‘around 1.00’ overwhelmingly the more likely can you? Perhaps I was being too optimistic?

As anyone without agendas can see,

Do you mean like those that have created a plot to justify pointing a finger at Isenschmidt? Like those who try to eliminate inconvenient witnesses by simply accusing them of being ‘in on it.’ Are those the people that you mean Michael?

all those activities in red would take approximately 5-10 minutes minimum.

Two minutes tops. Unless you accuse Diemschitz and Eagle of acting like Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong on the surface of the moon?

Perhaps more,

Did he stop for a meal?

but for the sake of this discussion, 5-10 minutes. Its a 5 minute interval on the clock from when Spooner arrives to when Lamb arrives. So then how long for the notifications, gathering, search party dispatch and Spooner returning with them. 5 minutes? 5-10?

So, invent a massively exaggerated time (which we have no way of checking) and you base a timeline around it. Come on Michael. No one’s falling for that one.

By using Louis Diemshitz stated arrival time of "precisely" 1am, (it is said he was adamant about that time),

Let’s be accurate for a change and avoid trying any obvious attempt to create mystery shall we? Louis never mentioned the time when he got to the yard. What he actually said was that the Baker’s clock said exactly 1.00 when he passed it.

and adding the 5-10 minutes before Lamb arrives...then what time is the earliest Lamb could have been there with Eagle and Issac K? Thats right, as late as 1:10-1:15. 10-15 minutes later than he stated. And no-one has even left to call Johnson yet. Yet Johnson says he is there at 1:10. And Blackwell at 1:16.

Dismissing the 5 or 10 minutes ‘moonwalk’ time and we have Dr. Blackwell (the most trustworthy time on that night) arriving 10 minutes after Lamb and Eagle met Lamb just before that. So, maths time, 1.16 minutes 10 minutes equals 1.06 (Lamb’s arrival time) Eagle met him just before that. It’s simple…no need for the moonwalk. It fits perfectly.

Confused?

Not in the slightest Michael

Anyone who isnt hasnt been paying attention, or has been blind to the details. Or has bias.

Like someone with a theory about a plot to defend?

Louis could not have arrived at 1. Period. So... would the individuals who constantly misconstrue the facts and offer their own substitutions for many of the witnesses stated times of events, please dont argue that their subjective time substitutions are preferable to the known facts.

And I’ve just proven that he did…..again. By sticking to the facts and not inventing any.

You have reliable witnesses as milestones here. PC Smiths sighting at 12:35.

You appear to have forgotten Dr. Blackwell Michael (shock, horror) and have chosen as ‘reliable’ PC without a watch who was estimating his time from an undisclosed clock.

Lamb seeing Eagle at just before,

Oh well. That didn’t last long did it? You’re back to the cherrypicked just ‘before quote’ again. I can’t claim to be surprised.

or 1am. Johnson at 1:10, Blackwell at 1:16. When there is a quote that says "just before" Herlock, it means 1 source recorded it as such. You are not to decide which is the real time when the 2 different times are quoted. The facts can dictate that,...but thanks anyway. Ive included both.

No. You’ve finally mentioned both but have just decided on using the ONE and discarding the SEVEN. It’s good to see fair play in action.

Louis stated arrival time is a lie, proven by the fact that all those reliable milestones do not work with him arriving that


As you’re not getting it I’ll explain again. The problem is one of two approaches. Yours and mine.

Your approach is to provably massively exaggerate the time spent in the yard by inventing things that were never mentioned in the testimony and you’ve done this so that you can squeeze the rest of the times to try and make them look impossible. You’ve also had to go for a quote that was only one out of eight (dismissing the other seven) Then you’ve, again, decided that all times were synchronised perfectly.

My approach is to a) judge the events in the yard from the testimony of those who were there at the time without stretching them out to ridiculous durations and adding events that never occurred. Then b) I’ve taken the likeliest to have been accurate time in the evenings events (Dr. Blackwell’s) and worked backwards again using the testimonies of those involved. So Dr. Blackwell checked his own personal watch when he arrived at the yard and gave us 1.16. PC Lamb, with no reason to lie, stated that he arrived at the yard 10 minutes before Dr. Blackwell (so that was 1.06) And unless you believe that Lamb and Eagle stood chatting for 5 minutes then we can assume that Eagle met Lamb seconds before that (so around 1.05) Diemschitz arrived at around 1.00 and if we allow 3 or 4 minutes (and I say that he would only have needed 2) that still gives Eagle enough time to get to Lamb.

It couldn’t really fit more perfectly but obviously you don’t want that to be the case….hence the inventions and gross exaggerations in the yard.

Diemschitz around 1.00 - Eagle/Lamb around 1.05/1.06 - Dr. Blackwell 1.16

Absolutely no doubt 100% proven. Game over.

I’ll finish by highlighting your Dutfield’s Yard inventions and exaggerations. From the inquest:

“I put my whip handle to it, and tried to lift it up, but as I did not succeed I jumped down from my barrow and struck a match. It was rather windy, and I could only get sufficient light to see that there was some figure there. I could tell from the dress that it was the figure of a woman.
[Coroner] You did not disturb it? - No. I went into the club and asked where my wife was. I found her in the front room on the ground floor.
[Coroner] What did you do with the pony? - I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door. There were several members in the front room of the club, and I told them all that there was a woman lying in the yard, though I could not say whether she was drunk or dead. I then got a candle and went into the yard, where I could see blood before I reached the body.
[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police.”

Can anyone, hand-on-heart see 5 or 10 minutes (or possibly more according to Michael) in these short events?

Let’s look for actions and incidents alleged by you to have occurred which added time:

Call upstairs - nope.
Some checking to see if she was breathing - nope.
Some checking if they could recognise her - nope.
People discussing what problems this would cause - nope.
A second wave of onlookers come out of the club - nope.

You missed “played rock/paper/scissors to decide who went for a Constable.

Enough said I think.

[JeffHamm]

If I may, Andrew...

Whatever the case, Smith only arrived at the crime scene after PC Collins had arrived there. So, Lamb had arrived with PC 426H and Eagle, then Lamb sent PC 426H for the doctor's and Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn, then he whistled and then, as a result, Collins arrived - and then Smith arrived. So, at whatever time one wishes to have Diemshutz arrive to discover Stride, Smith follows some minutes later.

If one really wants to attach times to that, then we have to consider a time between Diemshutz arriving and Eagle running towards Commercial Road, then there's the time to consider that it would have taken Eagle to run out of the yard & return with Lamb & PC 426H, then there was some time between them arriving and Lamb sending PC 426H and Eagle away. These are the minimum of things we'd have to consider, as Collins may well have arrived while PC 426H was still running for the doctor and Smith may not have seen PC 426H because the latter didn't run north up Berner Street, but took another route. I would say that a minimum between Diemshutz arriving and Smith arriving would be 3 minutes, although that's quite probably too much of a cut back/shave.

Also, I think it would be better to speak of sequence rather than actual times/timings.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

A year or two ago George did a recreation of Deimshutz's events upon arrival (the getting down from his cart, checking, etc), and he timed that sequence at 1m 50 seconds.

Now, if Eagle heads straight from the yard towards Commercial Road (there are some reports that suggest he first went along Fairclough before returning and heading towards Commercial), then the round trip time depends upon where he meets PC Lamb. I think Lamb describes it as between Christian and Batty Street, while Eagle I think says at Grove Street (one block further along). The round trip based upon PC Lamb's testimony would be around 1m 55s, while from Grove it would be more like 2m 46s. This is presuming they are running, which I believe they say they are (I use 6.1 mph as an average running speed) and PC Lamb follows them immediately (no time including for talking to convince the PC to come with them). As a rough guide, I'll combine those two, estimating the "there and back again" trip for PC Lamb at 2m 20s.

So, we've got roughly 1m 50s (based upon George's work) and another 2m 20s (so, 4m 10s) used up after Deimshutz's arrival until PC Lamb arrives. We still have to consider the time for Deimshutz to move his horse and cart away from the body to the door, go in and alert people, and for them to come back outside. But while that's a lot of words, it probably could be done fairly quickly, within a minute or so; I'll call it 50s, as that just makes our "accounted time a nice whole number of minutes to work with - it's an estimate after all.

Based upon those measurements, with the obvious assumptions I've had to make with regards to speed and exact distances travelled, etc, based upon Deimshutz's testimony of passing the clock at 1:00 (I'm adding no time for him to travel down the street to get to the yard as that wouldn't take much time, but one could add 30-40 seconds if they wanted) it would suggest PC Lamb arrives around 1:05ish, placing PC Smith's arrival after that.

If we could work out when Collins arrived, that would give us a starting point to work out PC Smith's arrival.
If Collin's came from the direction of Fairclough, as you suggest, and we assume he was running in response to the whistle, it would take him roughly 20s to cover the distance from Fairclough to the yard. Add 10s to place his initial starting point a bit further from the intersection, and that would suggest PC Smith probably arrives at some point just after 1:05:30ish (relative to Diemshutz's clock of course).

PC Smith did not come at the response of the whistle, though, so at 1:05ish he must be closer to the start of his route (around Gower's Walk), and to walk from there to the corner of Commercial and Berner would require roughly 2 minutes at 3.1mph, or 2m 26s at 2.5mph, patrol speed, but I think that's for daytime patrols, night time patrol speed was a bit faster - but since they are checking things, the "effective speed" will be below their walking speed). So that would suggest that PC Smith may have reached the top of Commercial and Berner somewhere around 1:07-1:08 at the latest, type thing, shifting it earlier towards 1:05 to the extent he is already heading from Gower's Walk towards Commercial/Berner. Given he arrives after PC Collins, and has to be in a position to not hear the whistle, the above all looks pretty workable to me. Opinions may vary.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Oh, one thing I should have mentioned, is that the above estimated arrival time for PC Lamb of 1:05 (based upon Deimshutz's 1:00 statement), results in a very good fit with PC Lamb then saying that the doctor arrived about 10 minutes later, given Dr. Blackwell arrived at 1:16. The difference of a minute is hardly a concern given we're dealing with estimations here. Even if one factors in the tendency to overestimate short temporal durations (I've posted the conversion table a few times), a 10 minute interval would, on average, represent a true interval of about 8 minutes. That still only leaves a 3 minute difference for the Doctor's arrival time, and there are arguments that PC Lamb may have mistook the arrival of Blackwell's assistant for the arrival of Blackwell himself, and the assistant arrives a few minutes before Blackwell (which would coincidently fit almost perfectly). Even if we set that possibility aside, an estimated time of arrival for the Doctor of 1:13 is more than acceptable given Blackwell arrives at 1:16 and is basing his time on a different clock (so the 1:13 and 1:16 may just reflect the difference between the clocks combined with the obvious error that any estimations like these are going to be associated with).

What we are not seeing is any obvious discrepancies, although it would suggest that PC Smith's time is based upon a clock and/or an estimation that is a bit out by a few minutes. One thing to note is that PC Smith says it was 1:00 as he was heading towards, not at, Berner Street. So if he updates his time based upon a clock at Gower's Walk (speculation on my part on that), then it requires only around a 5 minute difference between clock readings, which is entirely reasonable given what we know about clocks of the time.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Eagle testifies that he probably did see people in Berner Street, but he doesn't remember anything about them, so we can't say Stride wasn't in the area when he returned.

We don't know at what point Lave walked to the gate, but from what he says, all we know is Stride was not at the gate, she could have been 20 feet down the road and Kave would not have seen her. Again, we can't say Stride wasn't in the area based on Lave either.

So really, neither Eagle nor Lave put any real limits on the possibilities.

- Jeff

It's just that one of those possibilities - very often supposed - is that Eagle arrived after Smith passed through. Once Smith's clock is corrected to bring it into line with Blackwell's watch, there only remains a few minutes until 12:45. If Stride was not at the gates when Eagle returned, the best-case scenario is that she arrived there seconds before the BS man turned into street, followed seconds later by Schwartz.

Perhaps though, this exquisite timing is not required, because Eagle arrived before Smith. Perhaps he saw Stride and forgot that that was the woman he had seen about 20 minutes earlier, when he observed the deceased by candlelight. It's possible. It's also possible that Lave may have missed Stride standing about 20 feet from him. Of course, the odds of both being true are less than either one of them.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Im not suggesting that you do this intentionally but you appear not to appreciate the difference between a suggestion and a statement of fact. I’m not saying that the woman that Smith saw wasn’t Stride. The likelihood perhaps is that she probably was. All that I’m suggesting is the possibility of misidentification. We all know of the fallibility of eyewitness identification. It’s a little strange for example that there appears to be no problem in suggesting ‘Elizabeth Long was mistaken when she identified Annie Chapman’ when she passed within a foot of her but it’s almost blasphemous to suggest that we should at least consider the possibility that Smith might have seen a woman that just resembled Stride who standing on the other side of the road in a poorly lit street.

I understand the difference. However, if you had the same faith in Smith's identification as you do in Schwartz's tale, you wouldn't be putting forward this suggestion. Ergo, you must have some doubt regarding who the woman was that Smith saw talking to another man.

With Brown I’d apply the same thinking. Maybe, maybe not.

If Brown did not see who he thought he did, then what was the situation?

[JeffHamm]

It's just that one of those possibilities - very often supposed - is that Eagle arrived after Smith passed through. Once Smith's clock is corrected to bring it into line with Blackwell's watch, there only remains a few minutes until 12:45. If Stride was not at the gates when Eagle returned, the best-case scenario is that she arrived there seconds before the BS man turned into street, followed seconds later by Schwartz.

Perhaps though, this exquisite timing is not required, because Eagle arrived before Smith. Perhaps he saw Stride and forgot that that was the woman he had seen about 20 minutes earlier, when he observed the deceased by candlelight. It's possible. It's also possible that Lave may have missed Stride standing about 20 feet from him. Of course, the odds of both being true are less than either one of them.

Hi NBFN,

Indeed, Eagle's statements are too precarious for us to know the exact details. We have no idea how he came upon his times, for example, so do not know if what he says is at all accurate or not. Given we don't know, we have to look at the other events, like what he reports seeing, etc, and even there he tells us that even he doesn't know, so there's little we can do with his information other than note that it doesn't really create unsurmountable problems.

As for Lave, what I was getting at with regards to Stride being 20 feet away, is that if he only walks down to the gate but not out past the ally walls, then his view will be cut off by those walls. She wouldn't have to be far from either side of the ally entrance for his view of her to be obscured by the walls. Again, Lave's statements are too imprecise for us to state that he must have seen Stride if she was there, so we have to consider the possibility that he just couldn't see her from his location.

Obviously, I don't know those things happened, or where Lave was standing, or if Stride was there and Eagle just doesn't recall seeing her, nor am I suggesting that must be how it was. Rather, I'm simply pointing out that neither Eagle's nor Lave's statements allow us to preclude those possibilities - they don't provide any real constraints on the possibilities. Rather, I suppose, it would be the converse, if we presume Stride was there when Eagle passed by then we have to conclude that Eagle just doesn't recall seeing her, or if Stride was there when Lave was in the yard, then that would mean she was in a location Lave couldn't see (or he doesn't recall seeing her I suppose). But that's just showing that their statements do not preclude any scenerio (as it is trivial to fit their statements in if, of course, Stride wasn't there at the time). But based upon their statements, we cannot determine if Stride was or was not there, as either possibility "fits" their statements.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

How can someone not hearing something be supported by evidence? It’s actually your suggestion that requires the leap of faith because you are suggesting that when the incident occurred and also when Diemschitz passed she was in the same part of the house. I don’t really understand why you think that this is a valid argument. I could hear one thing whilst standing in my living room but I wouldn’t have heard it if I was in the kitchen.

Evidence for someone not hearing something, would include a witness who did hear it. For example, another neighbour. If only we had a single witness saying something like "I thought I heard what sounded like a woman screaming at about a quarter to one o'clock, but as things of that nature are fairly common around here, I took no notice." Alas, we only have things like this...

Star: A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

Fanny didn't live in mansion. Had she been in different parts of her place when she heard the footsteps, as compared to her location when she heard the commotion, the argument that she must have been somewhere other than her own room when this Schwartz incident supposedly occurs, falls flat. Had she instead been in the same place both times, then it becomes more likely than when not at her doorstep between 12:30 and 1am, she remained in an area that would not have prevented her hearing the claims of Israel Schwartz.

There’s no hint to take unless you believe that somehow all clocks and watches used and the time periods estimated were all almost miraculously accurate. And apparently this is what you appear to believe.

I'm tempted to say that this is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I say in #282 - the post you're replying to.

Then why can’t you accept that 12.35 + 30 minutes = 1.05?

Because the witness does not require us to do arithmetic - he tells us where he was at 1am, not 5 past one. You, however, must ignore this, because your theory requires those extra 5 minutes, to fit everything in.

The suggestion of dishonesty on Diemschitz fails at every single hurdle. Why would a man on a horse and cart lie about what time that he got back knowing full well that all that it needed was for one person to say ‘I heard a cart and looked out of my window and saw Mr Diemschitz from the club going passed. I told my husband who said ‘he’s back late…it’s twenty to one’’ What if someone had been on their doorstep and Louis hadn’t noticed them and they saw that he’d returned long before 1.00.

I'm tempted to say that this is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I say in #282 - the post you're replying to.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Clearly he’s estimating very loosely. Some time when Fanny was on her doorstep (and no one knows that)

Who's 'he' - Swanson or Goldstein? Are you suggesting that Swanson substituted his own estimation for that in the witness's statement, or that the witness (Goldstein) did not give a statement and so Swanson just decided to fill in this gap, by guessing?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If I may, Andrew...

Hello Frank, good to hear from you.

Whatever the case, Smith only arrived at the crime scene after PC Collins had arrived there. So, Lamb had arrived with PC 426H and Eagle, then Lamb sent PC 426H for the doctor's and Eagle for Inspector Pinhorn, then he whistled and then, as a result, Collins arrived - and then Smith arrived. So, at whatever time one wishes to have Diemshutz arrive to discover Stride, Smith follows some minutes later.

Agreed.

If one really wants to attach times to that, then we have to consider a time between Diemshutz arriving and Eagle running towards Commercial Road, then there's the time to consider that it would have taken Eagle to run out of the yard & return with Lamb & PC 426H, then there was some time between them arriving and Lamb sending PC 426H and Eagle away. These are the minimum of things we'd have to consider, as Collins may well have arrived while PC 426H was still running for the doctor and Smith may not have seen PC 426H because the latter didn't run north up Berner Street, but took another route. I would say that a minimum between Diemshutz arriving and Smith arriving would be 3 minutes, although that's quite probably too much of a cut back/shave.

Jeff recently stated that the distance along Berner St from Commercial Rd to Fairclough St, is 420 feet. I should know that sort of thing, but that number sounds right. The following is a snippet from Smith's Beat.

Including all the side streets and courts off Backchurch Lane and between Berner and Backchurch and allowing for the fact that he may not have walked all the way along them, or not walked along some of them at all would give a distance of about 1730 metres. Taking 25–30 minutes would give a speed of between about 0.96m/s (2.15mph) and 1.15m/s (2.58mph). Including the courts between Berner Street and Batty Street and between Batty and Christian streets and again allowing for the fact that he may not have walked all the way along them, or not walked along some of them at all, would give a distance of about 1800 metres. This would give a speed of between about 1m/s (2.24mph) and 1.2m/s (2.68mph). Assuming that he walked up all the courts that I could recognise as such from the map and the full distance in each, would give a distance of about 2090m and mean he walked at a speed of between about 1.16m/s (2.6mph) and 1.39m/s (3.12mph).

420 feet would be walked in 02:13 at 2.15mph, and in 01:32 at 3.12mph. Perhaps we could agree then, that Smith took about a minute and a half to walk from the top of Berner St, to the yard. He heard no call for police, and surely cannot have missed seeing the 4 men running into Berner St. I would suggest that the best-case scenario is that Smith was 2½ minutes behind Lamb, but probably more like 3 or 4.

Also, I think it would be better to speak of sequence rather than actual times/timings.

Cheers,
Frank

The devil is in the details.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ll go with Lave being in the yard from around 12.30 until around 12.40 and with the fact that he must have moved around and hadn’t stood at one spot - which is confirmed by the fact that Smith certainly passed and Lave didn’t see him. I’d also point out that Lave didn’t say that he didn’t see anyone…only that he saw nothing unusual. What would be unusual about a man and a woman talking in the street?:

Unless you regard the witnessing of a PC on his beat as amounting to something unusual, you're contradicting yourself.

Lave goes into the yard at approx 12.30 and sees nothing unusual (perhaps he sees the couple, perhaps they weren’t there yet? Perhaps he saw them in the distance walking along?)
He goes back inside the yard and the couple walk along Berner Street arriving at approx 12.31/2.
Smith passes at say 12.33/4 and sees them.
After he passes the couple move on.
At this point Lave is either somewhere near to the printing office or he’s in the loo (making his surname apt).
At approx 12.35 Eagle returns unseen by Lave. The gateway area was dark remember.
At approx 12.39/40 Lave goes back inside the club, possibly after a last glance into the deserted street.

Couple - tick.
Smith - tick.
Lave seeing nothing unusual or nothing at all - tick.
Eagle returning unseen by Lave - tick.

No subterfuge required.

There's an obvious problem with this. Several times in the past I've made a point based on the following evidence.

Mrs Diemschitz: It was just one o'clock when my husband came home. Some twenty minutes previously a member of the club had entered by the side door, but he states that he did not then notice anybody lying prostrate in the yard. It was, however, very dark at the time, and he might, in consequence, have failed to see any such object on the ground.

Morris Eagle: I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way.
...
Can you say whether the deceased was lying there then?-I could not say for certain; it was very dark near the gates, and only the lights from the club shone into the yard.

It would seem that Eagle was the last to enter the club before the discovery. Therefore, it would seem that Lave must have been at the gates, very near the time that Stride was seen on the street, talking to a man. Any chance that Lave went a bit further than he said he did?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I understand the difference. However, if you had the same faith in Smith's identification as you do in Schwartz's tale, you wouldn't be putting forward this suggestion. Ergo, you must have some doubt regarding who the woman was that Smith saw talking to another man.

I don’t think that either men lied but I think that the possibility exists that each of them could have been mistaken. It’s not a matter of faith. Neither had any reason to lie. I’ve already said that it’s possible that Schwartz might have seen an event that occurred pre-12.30 then assumed (or even persuaded himself) that it was around 12.45. I’ve also suggested that he might have thought the incident more serious than it actually was due to his lack of English. I’ve also said that Smith was possibly/probably correct but we can’t assume that it’s not at least possible that he saw a woman who resembled Stride. After all, the couple were doing nothing wrong so Smith had no reason to pay them any particular attention.

If Brown did not see who he thought he did, then what was the situation?

A number of scenarios:

Stride/Parcelman move on after Smith and stand around the corner where Brown later sees them.
Stride/Parcelman walk on along Fairclough Street, another couple arrive seen by Brown, they move on, Stride returns and goes to the gateway.
Stride/Parcelman move on after Smith. They later separate further along Berner Street. The other couple arrive seen by Brown. They move on as Strde returns. They don’t see her because they have their backs to her but she might have seen them and Brown.
The woman with Parcelman wasn’t Stride. They just move on and leave the scene.

I think that we can make too much of the idea that people can ‘just miss’ seeing each other. It happens all the time but when we’re looking at these ‘familiar’ events it can seem as if we’re conveniently moving people around like chess pieces but we’re not. We’re just stating the possibilities.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Evidence for someone not hearing something, would include a witness who did hear it. For example, another neighbour. If only we had a single witness saying something like "I thought I heard what sounded like a woman screaming at about a quarter to one o'clock, but as things of that nature are fairly common around here, I took no notice." Alas, we only have things like this...

Star: A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

Fanny didn't live in mansion. Had she been in different parts of her place when she heard the footsteps, as compared to her location when she heard the commotion, the argument that she must have been somewhere other than her own room when this Schwartz incident supposedly occurs, falls flat. Had she instead been in the same place both times, then it becomes more likely than when not at her doorstep between 12:30 and 1am, she remained in an area that would not have prevented her hearing the claims of Israel Schwartz.

Surely you can see that your point doesn’t stand up? Your saying that if she was in the same part of the house when she heard the footsteps that she was when the incident occurred then she would have heard the incident. That’s obvious but the point is that we don’t know. So the possibility exists that she wasn’t. My question to you would be - why are you so resistant to something as everyday as someone hearing one thing but not another (given that we don’t know where she was, inside her house, at either time) and yet your totally confident that a man lied and placed himself at the scene of a murder, clearly going to be associated with the recent series, with non-existence witnesses who couldn’t back up that he wasn’t involved? Which one of these two is the less likely? It can’t be close.

I'm tempted to say that this is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I say in #282 - the post you're replying to.

There’s no misrepresentation. You constantly baulk at this. You’ve stated in the past your reluctance to accept a margin for error.

Because the witness does not require us to do arithmetic - he tells us where he was at 1am, not 5 past one. You, however, must ignore this, because your theory requires those extra 5 minutes, to fit everything in.

But again, I’m only suggesting errors, you’re suggesting dishonesty; that Diemschitz must have lied. So did Lamb lie when he said that he arrived at the yard 10 minutes before Dr. Blackwell?

I'm tempted to say that this is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I say in #282 - the post you're replying to.

I’ll repeat what I’ve said in other posts. If we’re looking for the most reliable time in Berner Street I’d suggest a Doctor using his own pocket watch who specifically logged the time as he arrived at the yard would be head and shoulders above the rest.

Blackwell arrived 1.16
Lamb arrived 10 minutes earlier so around 1.06
Eagle would have seen Lamb around a minute for their arrival at the yard, so around 1.05
This has Diemschitz returning at around 1.00

Smith arrived after Lamb. Therefore Smith’s 1.00 isn’t compatible with Diemschitz 1.00.

Different clocks poorly synchronised - problem solved. Why is this an issue apart from the fact that it doesn’t allow for Diemschitz being The Hooded Claw?