What's in a name?

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all.


I just wanted to get some viewpoints on something that may or may not be of relevance...but worth your time and input for sure.

We know that the socialist club; outside of which Stride was murdered, had members who were both socialists and anarchists in their political views and could therefore be perceived as political extremists to a certain extent. The Jewish members of the club certainly weren't regarded favorably by any of the more orthodox Jews in the area.

Therefore, if there's evidence to suggest that there was an element of Political extremism concerning some of the members, is there also any evidence to suggest a potential RELIGIOUS extremist element too?

I say this because I read an article from the archives earlier today, which seems to imply a potential religious link as well as a political one.

The reason why I believe that this may be of significance in relation to the murder of Stride; is because of the potential symbolism of some of the elements of her murder.

In one of my posts on another thread "Stride Murder", I made reference to the Grapes found in her right hand and Cachous in her left hand.

It has been argued many times before, how the killer could have managed to kill Stride, without her dropping anything from either hand.

However...

I then considered whether we have been looking at this from the wrong angle and whether it was perhaps the killer that PLACED the grapes and cachous in her hands before leaving the scene, ergo, they were placed deliberately post-mortem.
Not forgetting of course that certain items were seemingly placed by the feet of Chapman post-mortem by her killer.

I did a little further digging and found a reference to the symbolism of grapes.

While grapes are primarily seen as a symbol of wealth, faith, courage, and fertility, I was astonished to find that they can also have a much darker meaning...

According to the bible; the book of Isaiah, specifically Isaiah 5; 1-7 ...refers to grapes, a vineyard...and based on that particular passage, grapes can also represent...disobedience of God's will and subsequent destruction and a reference to bloodshed.
In context, the passage talks of God's expectations for ISRAEL to produce fertile fruit, but instead finds that only wild and sour grapes are produced, which then angers God and leads to the destruction of the vineyard. In essence, the passage blames the Jews for disobeying God's will and for the destruction of the vineyard...but...

What if the killer was trying to show us, that he perceived Stride as the destroyed vineyard personified?

What if the killer had a religious motive toward Stride? There she lay, a destroyed vineyard holding sour grapes BROKEN from their stem, soured, infertile, and ruined.

The vineyard in the bible is destroyed as a punishment toward the Jews and so was Stride's murder a symbolic anti-Jewish statement?

This would perhaps make sense if Stride was there at the club to see a Jew.

Perhaps a Jew with extremist views disliked another Jew seeing Stride and her murder was his punishment and may explain the subsequent behavior of certain members of the club.

Her murder may of course have NOT been an anti-Jewish statement, but instead have been committed by a Jew with extremist religious beliefs.

I say this because, the newspaper article that I referred to at the top of this post, also refers to the idea that IF a Jew is ousted by his fellow Jews for having been with a CHRISTIAN girl, the way to seek atonement and redemption for their sins, is to destroy the object of their affection, through death and mutilation...this is alleged by the author of the article, to have been proven through a particular Jewish text.

Therefore, when you apply the hypothesis that the killer was a religious extremist who was EITHER anti- Jewish and punishing the Jews, OR a a Jew who was seeking atonement for their sins and felt compelled to kill, this may explain the reason why Stride was found clutching grapes.

Essentially, grapes on the vine are seen as a good symbol, whereas WILD grapes OR an EMPTY vine, are symbols of disobedience by the Jews and destruction of the vineyard as a punishment.

If Stride was seen as the destroyed vineyard holding wild black grapes and cachous to take away the sour taste of the grapes in the afterlife, perhaps her killer was a religiously motivated psychopath.

Add this to the GSG and perhaps there's something there that we've been missing all along.

But..there's more...now for the good part...




Interestingly...the elusive Mr Schwartz, or "Israel Schwartz"...who has been discussed before, and is currently being looked at by several other members of this site...

...now if you translate his name, or the meaning of his name, it could also be another clue.

Schwartz... means BLACK... (black grapes found on Stride)

Israel?...

Well, Israel is the name given to JACOB after he wrestled with an ANGEL... (Lipski was alleged to have murdered Miriam ANGEL in 1887 in Batty Street)

"Lipski" was the name that Israel Schwartz mentioned...



In other words, ISRAEL was formerly called JACOB...


and what's the English name for JACOB?..


"JACK"


I will leave that with you...



RD

[Abby Normal]

wow. you sure your not pierre? lol

[Enigma]

Er .... correct me if this is wrong. Is not Jack the diminutive of John? Is not Jake the diminutive of Jacob?
Dontcha think that kinda shoots down the theory?

[The Rookie Detective]

Er .... correct me if this is wrong. Is not Jack the diminutive of John? Is not Jake the diminutive of Jacob?
Dontcha think that kinda shoots down the theory?

ha ha

I anticipated this and of course, you are absolutely correct in that JACOB derives from JOHN...

But... in biblical terms, JACOB is the name JACK.

The French version of JACOB can also be JACK.


And so, respectfully, you're both right AND wrong at the same time.


I am not referring to the correct English language-derived form, I am referring specifically to the Old Testament (Jewish Pre-Christian) BIBLICAL version, where the names ISRAEL, JACOB and JACK are all linked.


And so, a religious Jew calling himself Israel, who then can't be traced, and who claims to have seen a man assault a woman who is found dead within 15 minutes and few feet away, and ho claims a man shouts "Lipski" a Jew who was believed to have been wrongly convicted (even after he confessed) after he was accused of killing a woman called Angel, who Jacob fights in the bible to become Israel...and then no-one else witnesses the assault on Stride...there's an argument to say that Israel Schwartz was the man who murdered Stride...now whether he was the ripper, is hard to say, but I would suggest that the following is true...

Schwartz made his entire story up, gave a false name and then fooled the police by playing the "I can't speak English" race card...and the police fell for it.

They suspected he was lying at the time and I think that the only part of his story that is true, is that he was seen and chased...but for whatever reason...it was swept under the carpet.

Another member (NOT ME) has suggested also that Schwartz and Goldstein were the SAME MAN...which is interesting in that there are striking similarities between both going to the police etc...

And so, thank you for your response, because you are absolutely correct in your post, but only outside the realms of the biblical version of the name JACOB...aka JACK to which I was referring in relation to the murder of Stride.

That would then suggest that the man who killed Stride had knowledge of the bible and was either a JEW; the man who called himself Israel Schwartz...OR...the killer was a Christian who was punishing the Jews..but crucially, the name JACOB only works in French and NOT English; meaning that the killer may also have been a Frenchman who attached himself to the case...

OR with a French name...

"The French Colonel"

Charles Le Grand was the man who interrogated Matthew Packer to provide a story about the GRAPES
Charles Le Grand was the man who presented the VINE found in the mud
Charles LE Grand was alleged to have worked for the WVC set up after the murder Chapman...BUT...
CHarles LE Grand was the man who broke into a man's home and threatened a witness to the murder of Miriam ANGEL in 1887, on his search to find a man named SCHMUSS; one of the 2 men who LIPSKI himself told the police had in fact murdered ANGEL.

IT's a fact that Le Grand got to Packer...and so it could also be the case that he got to other witnesses to the murder too.

A serial killer will often take great pleasure in involving themselves directly into the case of their own victims...and so I believe that one of the following is true...

1 - The killer was a Jewish religious extremist calling himself ISRAEL SCHWARTZ who gave himself a false name... (as mentioned above)

OR

2 - The killer was a man who placed the grapes, convinced a witness to tell a story about a man buying (symbolic) grapes, produced an empty (symbolic) vine from nowhere, threatened a Jew to call himself ISRAEL SCHWARTZ (symbolic), and to tell a false story of Stride's assault...and a man who was also linked to the investigation into the previous murder of Miriam Angel.
That would also mean that Le Grand forced a local Jew to also make up a story of seeing Stride being assaulted, BS man and Pipeman etc...and that the real man pulling all the strings was in fact... Charles Le Grand.

Let's not forget that at the time, Charles Le Grand was already a CONVICTED CRIMINAL...and PROVEN to have threatened, blackmailed and extorted many women... and IF they didn't comply...he WROTE LETTERS threatening to MURDER them in every way imaginable.

He also was convicted AGAIN and incarcerated in 1889 for 2 years.


Le Grand can be linked to BOTH investigating ANGEL and STRIDE and was a violent man who has been suspected in the past.

Was the murder of Miriam Angel the catalyst for the murder of Stride...or the catalyst for the murders overall?


Lots to unravel


and discuss


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

In summary, I am suggesting that EITHER...

The GRAPES were placed deliberately by a religiously fanatical JEW calling himself ISRAEL SCHWARTZ... and he was the killer of Stride...

OR

The GRAPES were placed deliberately by a man who was pulling ALL the strings in Charles Le Grand... and he was the killer of Stride...



RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

In summary, I am suggesting that EITHER...

The GRAPES were placed deliberately by a religiously fanatical JEW calling himself ISRAEL SCHWARTZ... and he was the killer of Stride...

OR

The GRAPES were placed deliberately by a man who was pulling ALL the strings in Charles Le Grand... and he was the killer of Stride...



RD

Abraham Herschberg seemed to have something to say about almost everything related to the murder, and he said:

In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

No mention of grapes. So, if there had been grapes in Stride's hand, planted or not, what do you suppose happened to them? It's interesting that there were claims that grape stalks were later found near where Stride's body had lain.

Manchester Guardian, Oct 8:

A sketch-portrait of a man has been made by the Scotland Yard authorities answering as nearly as possible to the description given by Matthew Packer, 44, Berner- street, and that of two other witnesses, who assert that they saw the man, and actually conversed with him prior to the committal of the murder. Packer keeps a fruit shop next door to the yard adjoining the Working Men's Educational Club, and indignantly protests that two grape stalks were found near the body of Elizabeth Stride by a woman living up the yard. He seems positive that the grapes were sold by him to the man who murdered Stride.

[The Rookie Detective]

Abraham Herschberg seemed to have something to say about almost everything related to the murder, and he said:

In her hand there was a little piece of paper containing five or six cachous.

No mention of grapes. So, if there had been grapes in Stride's hand, planted or not, what do you suppose happened to them? It's interesting that there were claims that grape stalks were later found near where Stride's body had lain.

Manchester Guardian, Oct 8:

A sketch-portrait of a man has been made by the Scotland Yard authorities answering as nearly as possible to the description given by Matthew Packer, 44, Berner- street, and that of two other witnesses, who assert that they saw the man, and actually conversed with him prior to the committal of the murder. Packer keeps a fruit shop next door to the yard adjoining the Working Men's Educational Club, and indignantly protests that two grape stalks were found near the body of Elizabeth Stride by a woman living up the yard. He seems positive that the grapes were sold by him to the man who murdered Stride.

That's fascinating because as we know, more than one witness stated to her having Grapes in one hand and the Cachous in the other.

Which suggests that the grapes were indeed placed...

or subsequently disposed of by a witness.


RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

or subsequently disposed of by a witness.

In what manner?

[The Rookie Detective]

In what manner?

Well, as you say, there was no mention of grapes, BUT then there WERE also multiple witnesses who said there were grapes in her right hand...so they must have gone somewhere, or the witnesses were mistaken or lying...

RD

[NotBlamedForNothing]

...so they must have gone somewhere, or the witnesses were mistaken or lying...

... or someone couldn't resist the temptation.

[The Rookie Detective]

At the inquest, the pathologists stated that Stride had NOT HELD any grapes...however, this is contradictory to several witness reports at the crime scene...


Diemschutz testified that he didn't notice her hands, but separately also stated that he saw grapes in her right hand and sweetmeats in her left hand.

Edward Spooner states he saw a piece of paper folded in her right hand, maybe not grapes, but he did see something in her right hand.

Mrs Mortimer states that in her hand were found grapes and some sweets, but the context implies she may have been told this by another witness.

PC Lamb told the press he saw Grapes in her right hand (I'd need to check that)


Now of course, there is obviously a case for the grapes being a complete myth...but with multiple witnesses claiming something very similar, we have to be careful in discarding the grapes theory just in case we miss something.

I believe the general consensus is that the idea that Stride was holding Grapes in her right hand is factually incorrect, but I would have to negate the statements of Diemschutz, Spooner, Mortimer and Lamb before being sure the grapes weren't there and that it was a false claim given to the press...with Le Grand as the architect no doubt.


So, grapes, or no grapes? That is the question...


RD

[Sam Flynn]

I anticipated this and of course, you are absolutely correct in that JACOB derives from JOHN...

But... in biblical terms, JACOB is the name JACK.

The biblical names Jacob (Yaakov) and John (Yohanan) are completely different, in terms of spelling, meaning and origin.

[The Rookie Detective]

The flower that Stride wore has also been up for contention...

I know that ultimately it was described essentially as a rose.

But what I find interesting is that in the press, the flower was different, and varying press accounts describe a different flower.

Some reports state she wore a Dahlia, which is found in varying colors of course. The Dahlia is named after a Swede.

Dahlia flowers can also be duel toned and can be Red & White.

I'm not sure why the Dahlia flower is mentioned in the press... the Dahlia represents love, commitment, and new beginnings and the Victorians saw the Dahlia flower as representing a forever love as it were.

That said, the black Dahlia (not actually black but a deep burgundy RED) represents betrayal and sadness.


But I digress...it would appear that the press were incorrect (as they often are) about Stride having worn a duel-toned dahlia flower and the ROSE is much more likely.

On one view, you have the press reporting on Stride holding grapes and wearing a dahlia flower, but on the other, you have Stride's right hand empty, with NO grapes and just a rose flower.

It's almost as though someone really wanted to push to the press for the idea that Stride had grapes in her hand, was seen with a man who bought her grapes, had an empty grape stem found in the mud, and was wearing a different flower.

WHO would do that and WHY would they do that?

If the grapes are false, then we have to look at who initially mentioned the grapes..now on the face of it, we could say that Le Grand heard about the grapes and then pushed several witnesses to come up with supporting the idea she had grapes in her hand.

But that would then imply that along with Packer and the two women who state they saw white flower petals at the murder site etc... it would also suggest that Le Grand got to OTHER witnesses also...and that's a step above the known evidence and conjecture that would take further investigation.


IF the idea of the grapes is wholly untrue, then the idea that Stride was holding Grapes is an attempt for someone to make a statement. It's almost as though the killer is trying to give us clues that the public has missed through oversight or misinterpretation of what he was trying to achieve.

Let's not forget that the biggest aim and achievement for most psychopathic serial killers is to be known and remembered for their crimes and to maintain control by not disclosing all their victims once they've been caught.

A bank robber spends their whole time trying to not get caught...but that's not a serial killer's primary mindset...

I've always wondered whether there were times when the real killer / Jack the Ripper, was frustrated that nobody knew who he was and the details of his crimes were never fully known, recognized or understood.

Ironically, JTR's biggest achievement is also his biggest failure...he never got caught and so while being remembered, his identity continues to remain unknown...and I think the idea of not being known must have frustrated the killer after he had committed so many murders.

At some point, he would have wanted for someone to reveal who he was and then he could revel in his accomplishments to all...but what if there was a scenario in that the police knew who he was, but didn't want to give him the ultimate satisfaction of being unmasked and taking all the glory for the killings?


Now that would be ironic


RD





RD

[The Rookie Detective]

The biblical names Jacob (Yaakov) and John (Yohanan) are completely different, in terms of spelling, meaning and origin.

Very true... Yaakov is indeed JACOB...

And YAAKOV... is also JACK


So we have JACOB...Yaakov...Jack.


John is irrelevant because we are referring to JACOB/ISRAEL...being linked to the name JACK


If it was John the Ripper then it wouldn't make sense.


JACOB fought an ANGEL in the bible and was renamed ISRAEL

Hence Israel derives from Jacob...and then Jacob is YAAKOV (as you correctly say)...

But YAKKOV is...JACK.


So you've strengthened my hypothesis (not a theory of course because even I'm not that stupid)


ISRAEL - JACOB - YAAKOV - JACK...


In fact, the name Israel Schwartz could be anglicized to JACK BLACK.


Or J.B.


RD

[Wickerman]

The flower that Stride wore has also been up for contention...

I know that ultimately it was described essentially as a rose.

Another report says it was a Geranium, but they die after being cut, and smell pretty bad.
My wife challenged the idea of a rose in October, but she thought dahlia was more likely.

But what I find interesting is that in the press, the flower was different, and varying press accounts describe a different flower.

Some reports state she wore a Dahlia, which is found in varying colors of course. The Dahlia is named after a Swede.

Dahlia flowers can also be duel toned and can be Red & White.

I'm not sure why the Dahlia flower is mentioned in the press... the Dahlia represents love, commitment, and new beginnings and the Victorians saw the Dahlia flower as representing a forever love as it were.

That said, the black Dahlia (not actually black but a deep burgundy RED) represents betrayal and sadness.


But I digress...it would appear that the press were incorrect (as they often are) about Stride having worn a duel-toned dahlia flower and the ROSE is much more likely.

On one view, you have the press reporting on Stride holding grapes and wearing a dahlia flower, but on the other, you have Stride's right hand empty, with NO grapes and just a rose flower.

It's almost as though someone really wanted to push to the press for the idea that Stride had grapes in her hand, was seen with a man who bought her grapes, had an empty grape stem found in the mud, and was wearing a different flower.

WHO would do that and WHY would they do that?

If the grapes are false, then we have to look at who initially mentioned the grapes..now on the face of it, we could say that Le Grand heard about the grapes and then pushed several witnesses to come up with supporting the idea she had grapes in her hand.

The grapes are first mentioned in the press on 1st Oct. before Packer was involved. Press interviews with Diemshutz & Kozebrodski brought to light the suggestion of grapes in her right hand.
Mortimer said grapes were found, but she doesn't say she saw them.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881001.html