What's in a name?

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I believe that the Old Testament symbolism theory was an argument for JtR being Jewish. The theotokos feast day thing was part of the theory that the murders were committed by Louis Diemschutz and 2 other members of the Socialists Club.

Hi Lewis C,

Aah, the Randy Williams theory. Thanks Lewis.

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis C,

Wasn't that the theory put forward by Richard Patterson in support of his suspect, Francis Thompson?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I believe that the Old Testament symbolism theory was an argument for JtR being Jewish. The theotokos feast day thing was part of the theory that the murders were committed by Louis Diemschutz and 2 other members of the Socialists Club.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I recall Patterson's theory was revenge based. His websites long defunct now. The Theotokos Murders was an article appearing in Ripperologist 152, I read it but can't honestly recall much from it. I'm not massively inclined to read it again.

Hi Al,

As I recall Thompson, who was ultra religious, was living with a prostitute that he idolised and she left him. Thereafter he was supposedly searching for her, and composing some poetry that sounded like fantasies involving the blood letting and ripping of women. I think that was the theory Patterson was proposing.

Cheers, George

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Lewis C,

Wasn't that the theory put forward by Richard Patterson in support of his suspect, Francis Thompson?

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I recall Patterson's theory was revenge based. His websites long defunct now. The Theotokos Murders was an article appearing in Ripperologist 152, I read it but can't honestly recall much from it. I'm not massively inclined to read it again.

[GBinOz]

Yes, then there was the theory that Kelly's mutilations and the way parts of her were positioned in the room contained Old Testament symbolism. And the one where the dates of the murders coincided with the theotokos feast day calendar.

Hi Lewis C,

Wasn't that the theory put forward by Richard Patterson in support of his suspect, Francis Thompson?

Cheers, George

[Lewis C]

It certainly wasn’t me Wick but I remember once wondering if Tabram might have been killed by someone that knew her? She was 39 and had 39 wounds. I must have been going through a conspiracy theory phase.

Pentagrams sound like Ivor Edwards?

Yes, then there was the theory that Kelly's mutilations and the way parts of her were positioned in the room contained Old Testament symbolism. And the one where the dates of the murders coincided with the theotokos feast day calendar.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We've been up to our necks in 'symbolism', one member saw '39' everywhere, another saw pentagrams across the east end, another one was looking for phases of the Moon......

It certainly wasn’t me Wick but I remember once wondering if Tabram might have been killed by someone that knew her? She was 39 and had 39 wounds. I must have been going through a conspiracy theory phase.

Pentagrams sound like Ivor Edwards?

[Wickerman]

As always Jon, thank you kindly for your brilliant post, and respect to you for taking the time to respond.

Steady on RD, I'm just a voice in the peanut gallery...

I am in no way suggesting that Stride wore a Dahlia (as stated in several press reports)...but if she did, then its symbolism is potentially significant because the duel-tone Dahlia shown in the photos you uploaded, was worn by Victorians as a way of public display of a commitment to a true 'forever love.'

We've been up to our necks in 'symbolism', one member saw '39' everywhere, another saw pentagrams across the east end, another one was looking for phases of the Moon......

I believe there's evidence to suggest that Stride was dressed in a way that would suggest she WASN'T touting for business in BERNER ST; but rather that she was perhaps with someone, or was waiting for someone other than a client. This is evidenced by the fact that Stride was NEVER seen being intimate in Berner Street; unlike the way she was seen kissing and hugging the man earlier outside the pub, having left the pub with him...perhaps after a meal together...

Ok, but whatever she had in mind for that night, clearly did not go to plan.
Probably, more to the point is, what did he have in mind, what were the killers plans. His victim only needed to be a female out alone, whether he was looking for streetwalkers, or they were just the majority out where he was, is still a debatable point.

I still feel that the flower, the grapes, her attire and the way she was seen kissing and hugging a man earlier; lead me to believe that she MAY have been murdered on her date with her new man to whom she had fallen for over recent days...and perhaps the reason why she finally left Kidney.

I suspect, one of our mistakes has been to assume the killer was someone who struck out of the shadows, in a blitz-attack. I think there's reasonable cause to ask if he didn't date them first. Except Eddowes of course, but otherwise he likely met them in a casual exchange, walked with them, held their attention with some entertaining chatter, basically made them relax until their defenses were down. He may have bought them food & drink, in his mind he was dating. Then, after an hour or two, and when the time was right, he acted out his fantasy...
Get to know them first, then destroy them.

[Michael W Richards]

I was reminded by this thread of how symbolism may have been a part in Catherines murder. Not religious though. There was a street punishment by the local criminals that when someone "snitched" on someone they were punished by cuts made to their face and nose. Not always post mortem, or even in fatalities. They were referred to as Noses, I assume for sniffing out criminal activities and sticking their noses into someone elses business. I believe some of the street prostitutes that the police has coerced into collecting information on gangs and criminals in the area were called "Noses".

Now, Kate has those same kinds of facial marks. No-one really knows why they were made. But we do hear that she intended to go to the police with information she believed would lead them to the killer at large. Were those marks made symbolic of that supposed intention?

If so, might that open the door to another interpretation of a possible motive for her murder?

[Hair Bear]

Hi all.

In other words, ISRAEL was formerly called JACOB...


and what's the English name for JACOB?..


"JACK"


I will leave that with you...



RD

I'm pretty sure I'm missing the point here, but if a journo invented the term Jack the Ripper, why would there be some elaborate version of Jack from other quarters?

[The Rookie Detective]

Another report says it was a Geranium, but they die after being cut, and smell pretty bad.
My wife challenged the idea of a rose in October, but she thought dahlia was more likely.





The grapes are first mentioned in the press on 1st Oct. before Packer was involved. Press interviews with Diemshutz & Kozebrodski brought to light the suggestion of grapes in her right hand.
Mortimer said grapes were found, but she doesn't say she saw them.
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor.../18881001.html

As always Jon, thank you kindly for your brilliant post, and respect to you for taking the time to respond.

I am in no way suggesting that Stride wore a Dahlia (as stated in several press reports)...but if she did, then its symbolism is potentially significant because the duel-tone Dahlia shown in the photos you uploaded, was worn by Victorians as a way of public display of a commitment to a true 'forever love.'

I believe there's evidence to suggest that Stride was dressed in a way that would suggest she WASN'T touting for business in BERNER ST; but rather that she was perhaps with someone, or was waiting for someone other than a client. This is evidenced by the fact that Stride was NEVER seen being intimate in Berner Street; unlike the way she was seen kissing and hugging the man earlier outside the pub, having left the pub with him...perhaps after a meal together...

The flower, plus the possibility of the grapes, and the cachous for sweetening the breath; presumably to prepare to kiss someone, of AFTER having kissed someone...was Stride on a date...the went wrong?

Was her killer a jilted lover, or did the killer use a longer-term ruse and plan to kill her all along and lure her into a false sense of security?


I still feel that the flower, the grapes, her attire and the way she was seen kissing and hugging a man earlier; lead me to believe that she MAY have been murdered on her date with her new man to whom she had fallen for over recent days...and perhaps the reason why she finally left Kidney.


Interesting


RD

[Wickerman]

The flower that Stride wore has also been up for contention...

I know that ultimately it was described essentially as a rose.

Another report says it was a Geranium, but they die after being cut, and smell pretty bad.
My wife challenged the idea of a rose in October, but she thought dahlia was more likely.

But what I find interesting is that in the press, the flower was different, and varying press accounts describe a different flower.

Some reports state she wore a Dahlia, which is found in varying colors of course. The Dahlia is named after a Swede.

Dahlia flowers can also be duel toned and can be Red & White.

I'm not sure why the Dahlia flower is mentioned in the press... the Dahlia represents love, commitment, and new beginnings and the Victorians saw the Dahlia flower as representing a forever love as it were.

That said, the black Dahlia (not actually black but a deep burgundy RED) represents betrayal and sadness.


But I digress...it would appear that the press were incorrect (as they often are) about Stride having worn a duel-toned dahlia flower and the ROSE is much more likely.

On one view, you have the press reporting on Stride holding grapes and wearing a dahlia flower, but on the other, you have Stride's right hand empty, with NO grapes and just a rose flower.

It's almost as though someone really wanted to push to the press for the idea that Stride had grapes in her hand, was seen with a man who bought her grapes, had an empty grape stem found in the mud, and was wearing a different flower.

WHO would do that and WHY would they do that?

If the grapes are false, then we have to look at who initially mentioned the grapes..now on the face of it, we could say that Le Grand heard about the grapes and then pushed several witnesses to come up with supporting the idea she had grapes in her hand.

The grapes are first mentioned in the press on 1st Oct. before Packer was involved. Press interviews with Diemshutz & Kozebrodski brought to light the suggestion of grapes in her right hand.
Mortimer said grapes were found, but she doesn't say she saw them.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881001.html

[The Rookie Detective]

The biblical names Jacob (Yaakov) and John (Yohanan) are completely different, in terms of spelling, meaning and origin.

Very true... Yaakov is indeed JACOB...

And YAAKOV... is also JACK


So we have JACOB...Yaakov...Jack.


John is irrelevant because we are referring to JACOB/ISRAEL...being linked to the name JACK


If it was John the Ripper then it wouldn't make sense.


JACOB fought an ANGEL in the bible and was renamed ISRAEL

Hence Israel derives from Jacob...and then Jacob is YAAKOV (as you correctly say)...

But YAKKOV is...JACK.


So you've strengthened my hypothesis (not a theory of course because even I'm not that stupid)


ISRAEL - JACOB - YAAKOV - JACK...


In fact, the name Israel Schwartz could be anglicized to JACK BLACK.


Or J.B.


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

The flower that Stride wore has also been up for contention...

I know that ultimately it was described essentially as a rose.

But what I find interesting is that in the press, the flower was different, and varying press accounts describe a different flower.

Some reports state she wore a Dahlia, which is found in varying colors of course. The Dahlia is named after a Swede.

Dahlia flowers can also be duel toned and can be Red & White.

I'm not sure why the Dahlia flower is mentioned in the press... the Dahlia represents love, commitment, and new beginnings and the Victorians saw the Dahlia flower as representing a forever love as it were.

That said, the black Dahlia (not actually black but a deep burgundy RED) represents betrayal and sadness.


But I digress...it would appear that the press were incorrect (as they often are) about Stride having worn a duel-toned dahlia flower and the ROSE is much more likely.

On one view, you have the press reporting on Stride holding grapes and wearing a dahlia flower, but on the other, you have Stride's right hand empty, with NO grapes and just a rose flower.

It's almost as though someone really wanted to push to the press for the idea that Stride had grapes in her hand, was seen with a man who bought her grapes, had an empty grape stem found in the mud, and was wearing a different flower.

WHO would do that and WHY would they do that?

If the grapes are false, then we have to look at who initially mentioned the grapes..now on the face of it, we could say that Le Grand heard about the grapes and then pushed several witnesses to come up with supporting the idea she had grapes in her hand.

But that would then imply that along with Packer and the two women who state they saw white flower petals at the murder site etc... it would also suggest that Le Grand got to OTHER witnesses also...and that's a step above the known evidence and conjecture that would take further investigation.


IF the idea of the grapes is wholly untrue, then the idea that Stride was holding Grapes is an attempt for someone to make a statement. It's almost as though the killer is trying to give us clues that the public has missed through oversight or misinterpretation of what he was trying to achieve.

Let's not forget that the biggest aim and achievement for most psychopathic serial killers is to be known and remembered for their crimes and to maintain control by not disclosing all their victims once they've been caught.

A bank robber spends their whole time trying to not get caught...but that's not a serial killer's primary mindset...

I've always wondered whether there were times when the real killer / Jack the Ripper, was frustrated that nobody knew who he was and the details of his crimes were never fully known, recognized or understood.

Ironically, JTR's biggest achievement is also his biggest failure...he never got caught and so while being remembered, his identity continues to remain unknown...and I think the idea of not being known must have frustrated the killer after he had committed so many murders.

At some point, he would have wanted for someone to reveal who he was and then he could revel in his accomplishments to all...but what if there was a scenario in that the police knew who he was, but didn't want to give him the ultimate satisfaction of being unmasked and taking all the glory for the killings?


Now that would be ironic


RD





RD

[Sam Flynn]

I anticipated this and of course, you are absolutely correct in that JACOB derives from JOHN...

But... in biblical terms, JACOB is the name JACK.

The biblical names Jacob (Yaakov) and John (Yohanan) are completely different, in terms of spelling, meaning and origin.