Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

face front

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"Are you saying only people attacked from behind clutch onto their belongings?"

Not at all. I am saying that one does not normally take out candy/gum/chewing tobacco in the midst of a shoving match--as Schwartz would have us believe. Nor does one have an unrumpled dress in such an altercation. Nor does one look as if "lain gently down" as Liz looked.

Besides, how was she placed on the ground if her assailant were in front?

Watch my recreation. Perhaps it will help.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Then the "proof" is imaginary.

Indeed.

Mike

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.
I am saying that one does not normally take out candy/gum/chewing tobacco in the midst of a shoving match--as Schwartz would have us believe. LC

Who said she was taking out anything in the midst of a shoving match? It's not in Schwartz's account. I certainly wouldn't suggest it either.

If you are standing somewhere with sweets in your hand and someone comes up all in a frenzy, you either drop whats in your hands to run and get away or you hold onto them throughout the strikes because you don't want them stolen.

It's really that simple. No need to be taking out anything mid anything else.

[lynn cates]

magic dress

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Why is she standing there, sweets in hand? Perhaps she liked the feel?

And, no, it is NOT that simple. Your theory requires her to hold on to them whilst being bounced about. It also requires a magic dress that falls into water yet remains dry and untorn.

Cheers.
LC

[Harry D]

I wonder why Schwartz was never called to identify Michael Kidney? Even as a precaution.

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Why is she standing there, sweets in hand? Perhaps she liked the feel?

And, no, it is NOT that simple. Your theory requires her to hold on to them whilst being bounced about. It also requires a magic dress that falls into water yet remains dry and untorn.

Cheers.
LC

What's odd about a Whitechapel prostitute standing by an open yard taking something to kill bad breath? It seems like a very professional way to do things actually.

The coroner said she was not wet with rain. Not that she had no dirt on her. Her neck scarf was sliced and there was dirt on her.

Listen to what Baxter says next...
Examining her jacket I found that although there was a slight amount of mud on the right side, the left was well plastered with mud.

[Jon Guy]

Who said she was taking out anything in the midst of a shoving match? It's not in Schwartz's account. I certainly wouldn't suggest it either.

If you are standing somewhere with sweets in your hand and someone comes up all in a frenzy, you either drop whats in your hands to run and get away or you hold onto them throughout the strikes because you don't want them stolen.

It's really that simple. No need to be taking out anything mid anything else.

Agreed Batman !!
She simply held onto them throughout her ordeal.

[lynn cates]

There was I , waiting by the . . . club?

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Prostitute? What makes you think so?

Taking a cashou? Very well. But why is she holding on to them? That is not taking. is she waiting for the approach of BSM?

Yes, I know all about the mud. But that was on her LEFT--precisely where the body was as if "gently lain down."

I'm afraid you will need to do MUCH better than a frontal assault IF you wish one to believe in BSM.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Prostitute? What makes you think so?

In March 1865 she is was busted by police as a prostitute.

Taking a cashou? Very well. But why is she holding on to them? That is not taking. is she waiting for the approach of BSM?

That is what hands are mostly for. Holding things. If you have ever stood anywhere with a bag of sweets in hand, there is your solution. In fact standing there might look pretty attractive to punters who might like to kiss also.

Yes, I know all about the mud. But that was on her LEFT--precisely where the body was as if "gently lain down."

If in your world plastered with mud means gently lain down, that what does 'slight amount' of mud on the right side mean?

In my world, plastered with mud doesn't mean gently lain down. It means caked in it. You get caked in mud when your trashing around in it or skidding through it or being dragged through it. The slight amount of mud is where less harsh contact occurred.

I'm afraid you will need to do MUCH better than a frontal assault IF you wish one to believe in BSM.

Sorry but you want us to believe that Schwartz coincidentally guessed a frontal assault and that coincidentally the autopsy revealed brusing at the front and shoulders. Also that Schwartz coincidentally described the man as having a peak cap, the same as Lewende later who saw Eddowes with someone. Also coindcidentally hearing the man shouting Lispki and then later Warren rubs anti-semetic writing above a piece of apron from a victim. Plus coincidentally... the Ripper just happens to strike within minutes of that murder.

Schwartz's account is overwhelmingly that of Stride being murdered by JtR in the context above. All one needs to do is accept what Scwartz says and it all fits smoothly into place... except for those who believed a jew was Jack the Ripper.

BTW - even Robert House who wrote about Kozminski had to accept that Stride was a ripper victim and that JtR had shouted Lipski. He said it was not uncommon at the time for jews to insult other jews this way. That is his out. I personally find that part hard to believe.

[RockySullivan]

whats the deal with the red & white flowers pinned to liz stride? Are they connected with the cachous? LC cachous are well known after smoking mints, and they were every popular as such back in the day. I'm trying to understand why liz had flowers pinned to her and was given candy, it looks as if she's being dressed for the slaughter. Pin a flower on her breast give her some candy...it's part of the ripper's fantasy seeing liz pleased to be treated like a princess obvlivous that she's about to die. Was the ripper someone younger who liked the older well worn looking prostitutes?

[Michael W Richards]

Why would the Ripper be trying to pull his victim into the street? Was he drunk or just having an off day? Doesn't add up to me.

The Ripper wouldnt be doing that Harry...nor likely assaulting a woman in clear view of 2 men.

Maybe friend of Kidneys who didn't like seeing her hanging about Jewish clubs.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

This all works with Schwartz` story as it is, Michael

Why start inventing stuff such as he was a club member, and was exiting the side door ?

It doesn't work with Israel Jon, I suggest that PC Smith is the last person to see Liz outside the passageway, which is supported by the fact that Fanny didn't see or hear Israel, Pipeman, a shout of Lipski, BSM or Louis arriving at 1am. It also places her where she eventually was found, lying inside the gates near the wall, at around 12:25.

The reason we need better explanations Jon is because obviously the accounts of Berner Street do not jive with one another. Fanny doesn't see or hear Louis yet she is at her door and she sees Goldstein. Its proof she was where she said she was at the time she said she was there. There is no such proof for any story in this bunch by the club...Eagle and Lave stating that they were at the same place at the same time yet neither sees each other, no-one but Israel sees or hears anything of what his witness statement says, 3 witnesses within 1 hour of the murder state they were alerted to a body at around 12:45..2 come from inside the club..and as Louis says he left with Isaac[s] to go for help after 1am, Isaac says he was sent by Louis and went alone just after 12:45. That's a third, and otherwise unknown party that leaves to get help.

They had very little time to co-ordinate a lie among themselves, and no chance to do so in a way that the members inside the club would know what the management downstairs had said. That's why Gillen and Issac directly contradict Louis on his arrival time by at least 15 minutes, and why Spooners timing isn't accepted as he gives his statement.

When a witness says he saw something that by implication would have the greatest bearing on the investigation of any witness account, corroboration is all that is needed to pursue that lead. There is none. There is no Israel testifying at the Inquest.

This is obviously not a Ripper murder and within the lies, embellishments and truths told by members and club outsiders, the real story lies in waiting.

Cheers Jon

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael
If the club had anything to do with Strides murder and wanted to cover it up-I think the first instinct would be to just go dump her body somewhere else. not leave it their and try to create some elaborate ruse.

I agree that might be one reaction, however all the blood makes that a bit tricky. I believe what Louis and others decided was that they were stuck with the body being in their passageway, but who found it and what was done from that point was theirs to create if they wanted to. Since any suspicion on any club members would mean almost certain closure of that club, they improvised quickly, backing the story up with the piece de resistance...a Sunday night witness who saw a gentile assault the dead woman.. off premises no less. A story likely translated by Wess of the club and paper...like for Goldstein on Tuesday night....after they discovered that Fannys story includes Goldsteins pass.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

I wonder why Schwartz was never called to identify Michael Kidney? Even as a precaution.

A very good question Harry.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

As for the cashous, the notion that she would hold onto these things out of some kind of value based ideal is ridiculous, she likely bought the cashous and the flower arrangement with her 6d from cleaning rooms that afternoon. they had little value intrinsically. But to someone who wanted to have fresh breath for some reason, a nice accoutrement. She was grabbed by her scarf and had it twisted tight choking her. Basic Reflex says the cashous get clutched tightly as a result of suddenly having her air cut off. her hands would also have gone to her throat to try and loosen the scarf...causing her left hand to get some blood on it when she is cut.."while falling".

She curls into a fetal position, very normal reaction to this event, and she bleeds out.

A question about this murder might be....IF the members including Issac K and Spooner were correct about their timing, and Stride bled to death, was there an opportunity to get her medical help that was not even attempted? The story that Eagle and Louis leave for help after 1am may well bethe case, but if Liz was actually cut around 12:45, I would think a case could be made, at least in a modern trial, for some culpability on the part of the club management in her death.

They may have allowed her to die.

Cheers