Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Paddy]

Hi Ben, Totally agree !

He would not have been allowed to speculate. They just wanted the facts.
All he was saying was that within the time frame, he could not definitely say BS was the murderer.

Pat.............................

[Wickerman]

Hi Ben, Totally agree !

He would not have been allowed to speculate. They just wanted the facts.
All he was saying was that within the time frame, he could not definitely say BS was the murderer.

Pat.............................

More likely it was his professional approach which would not permit him to speculate, and, in saying that BS man was not 'proven' to have been the killer, means?......

Exactly, which is why we are debating the 'other man' scenario.

Swanson is aware that 15 minutes of activity is unknown, somehow this 15 minute gap needs to be bridged.
At 12:45 am we are told a woman is assaulted in full view of the street.
At 1:00 am the body of a woman is found in the darkness, several feet away from the location of the assault.
- Was it the same woman?
- Was the attacker responsible for the body?
- What occurred in that 15 minutes?
- Was anyone else involved?

Swanson did not know the answers to these questions, and neither do we.

[c.d.]

Was it 12:45 or approximately 12:45?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Was it 12:45 or approximately 12:45?

c.d.

And what does 12:45 represent, when he turned down Berner St., or when he passed Dutfields Yard, or when he ran in the door at home?

What would make him look at his watch if he was frightened away from Dutfields Yard? You would think his watch would be the last thing on his mind.

He may have glanced at the clock in the Tobacconists window as he turned down Berner St., like Diemschitz, or likewise he may have recalled the time he made it home to safety.
In either case then he is estimating the time he passed Dutfileds Yard.

For all we know the first occasion he gave any thought to the time might have been when he first explained his story to the translator, and then being asked, "what time was that?".
Struggling to remember, he begins to either reference forwards from the Tobacconists clock, or backwards from arriving home - either way he is guessing.

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Jon.

"For all we know the first occasion he gave any thought to the time might have been when he first explained his story to the translator, and then being asked, "what time was that?"."

Indeed. Or perhaps, "Look Israel, old buddy, we have a favour to ask. Last night someone was killed outside our club at 12.45. Would you be willing to . . ."

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Does the official police report say 12:45 or approximately 12:45?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Did Schwartz have a watch and did he ever say how he came to know the time?

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Jon.

"For all we know the first occasion he gave any thought to the time might have been when he first explained his story to the translator, and then being asked, "what time was that?"."

Indeed. Or perhaps, "Look Israel, old buddy, we have a favour to ask. Last night someone was killed outside our club at 12.45. Would you be willing to . . ."

Cheers.
LC

I would even emphasize the predicament in the plea Lynn...."Israel, I need you to do me a favor."

There is always the possibility, if Schwartz did not know a word in English, that the translator substituted some details while assisting in providing the statement...even without Israels knowledge or consent. I recall once that Tom Wescott speculated that Wess may have translated for Schwartz, since he apparently was the translator for Leon that Tuesday night.

Not a ridiculous idea....and boy would it address some unknowns here.....did Schwartz in fact know Wess, did Israel attend that meeting and/or was he a member, why this altercation seemed to have anti semitic tones, ....if Schwartz could be tied to the club in any hard fashion...you have your potentially compromised witness, and therefore, not a suitable story for presentation, as fact, to a jury.

Thats how you end up with supporting statements for the story by investigators yet see no presence of Schwartz at the Inquest.

What if the Police believed the overall story, the assault and the assailant(s), but found that because of Israels attachment with the club or Wess they couldnt be sure of some of the details he provides,...like the specific spot where the attack occurred, or whether or not the assailant(s) were actually gentiles, as "Lipski" seems to indicate.

Best regards

[Wickerman]

Does the official police report say 12:45 or approximately 12:45?

c.d.

The original police statement has not survived.
Swanson's note begins:

12.45 a.m. 30th Israel Schwartz of 22 Ellen street, Backchurch Lane stated that at that hour on turning into Berner St. from Commercial Road & had got as far as the gateway....

And the Press story provides:

"...When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street..."

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"For all we know the first occasion he gave any thought to the time might have been when he first explained his story to the translator, and then being asked, "what time was that?"."

Indeed. Or perhaps, "Look Israel, old buddy, we have a favour to ask. Last night someone was killed outside our club at 12.45. Would you be willing to . . ."

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

If you don't mind, I'll pass on that scenario...

[Wickerman]

....did Schwartz in fact know Wess, did Israel attend that meeting and/or was he a member, why this altercation seemed to have anti semitic tones, ....if Schwartz could be tied to the club in any hard fashion...you have your potentially compromised witness, and therefore, not a suitable story for presentation, as fact, to a jury.

How's about establishing some of those 'what ifs' before leaping to any conclusions Michael?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn.

If you don't mind, I'll pass on that scenario...

To pass on something that is neither proven, nor dis proven, isnt the best approach to problem solving Jon. Its still a variable, a posit, a possibility,... until such time as its validity has been thoroughly tested.


Can you say Israel Schwartz did not know any members at that club, or feel any compunction to assist them with his statement? If you can...then based on what?

Cheers mate.

[lynn cates]

Swanson

Hello CD. Swanson has 12.45.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

implication

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Of course, just being involved with the club does not necessarily mean he was lying.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

plus size

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"If you don't mind, I'll pass on that scenario. . ."

Very well. If you prefer BSM PLUS . . .

Cheers.
LC