Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Ah Wickerman, that carries the implication that my previous 2,000 odd posts were not well reasoned!

Ok, forget I said anything

[Lechmere]

Lyn
Nothing to affirm it?
She was spotted talking to numerous different men in the street all evening.
Then was found murdered in a secluded yard.
I don't get your problem with the location.

Let me clarify 'second guessing the investigators'.
I mean over the basics - the fairly established sequences, the people they specifically cleared, the places they specifically searched, the things they were in a position to know a lot more about than us, given the limitations of the age.
That leaves plenty of areas open for discussion - not that I am advocating 'banning' the discussion of anything of course.

[Ben]

We have evidence that Stride was murdered at Dutfields Yard roughly between 12:45 and 1.00am.

We have evidence that Stride was attached at that location - give or take a few feet - roughly between 12:45 and 1.00am.

The obvious explanation, short of improbable "coincidence", is that the two events were connected; that the attacker was also the murderer. Every attempt to nullify this reality seems to be based on a desire to have both "Jack" as her killer, and "Jack" behaving as the theorists want him to behave. Unless Schwartz lied, BS is by far and away the best candidate for her murderer, and since this cannot be gainsaid, all theories relating to "Jack" ought to adjust to this reality. If the behaviour of BS is not consistent with your mental image of Jack, it is necessary to do one of two things. 1) Change your mental image of Jack, or 2) accept that Stride was killed by someone other than Jack.

But the have-your-cake-and-eat-it interpretation that asserts that someone else snuck onto the scene and attacked her after BS left (and the evidence for him leaving is..?), which also relies on Stride inexplicably hanging around in the location of her first attach, just doesn't work.

There is nothing problematic about BS coaxing Stride for the street to the yard, which he needn't have done through violence. He could easily have threatened her with his knife and demanded free sex, perhaps reassuring her that he wouldn't hurt her if she complied.

Remember that the presence of cachous in her hand is not consistent with a surprise attack.

I notice also that Swanson's comments keep getting misconstrued. He simply observed that it wasn't conclusively proved that BS was the murderer, which is fair enough. He certainly wasn't suggesting that a proposed "second attacker" was in any way probable or realistic.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

And if second guessing the investigators is not fruitful, what are we all doing here?

I thought we should be trying to fill in the blanks, not question their conclusions at every opportunity.

After all, they THOUGHT the case not solved.

The case yes, but we have a habit of questioning every aspect of the investigation, which is not the same.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Edward

Let’s look at the cachous in isolation
Option one – Stride was attacked outside the yard by the BS man and dragged in and killed.
Option two – Stride was killed by someone else and voluntarily went into the yard.
.

Option three - Stride was attacked in the gateway where was standing, and thrown down where was later found. I`ve gone with the known facts here ...

Again in isolation, let’s look at the noise – or lack of it. Schwartz said he heard Stride call out softly – above any noise coming from the Club. Schwartz was by then on the opposite side of the road and a little further down.
Option one – The BS man violently dragged Stride into the small Yard which is surrounded by people who were awake and mostly working. None hear a thing.
Option two – Stride voluntarily went into the yard to, as quietly and discretely as possible, perform a sexual act with someone who she took to be a customer. In the course of this she is suddenly attacked.
Which is more likely to result in the people in the surrounding rooms not hearing a thing, even above any noise coming from the Club?
It is not impossible for it to be Option one. Maybe she was struck mute with fear. Such things do happen. But Option two is the more likely.
.

Option three- She was swung to the floor quickly by her scarf, and although she did cry out, it was all too quick, and the singing in the club was enough to mask what sounds there may have been.

Once again in isolation, the timing.
Option one, the attack happened nearer 12.45 and the BS man was responsible.
Option two the attack happened nearer 1.00 and someone else was responsible.
Which is more likely? The wound seemed very fresh with the blood flowing. The culprit may well have been disturbed by Diemschutz.
While it is not impossible that the attack happened nearer 12.45, a timing nearer 1.00 seems more probable..

Well, as a witness saw her been attacked at around 12.45, it`s reasonable to assume she was killed around then. Her carotid was not completely severed, hence the blood still flowing.

The police investigating this murder had no problem with the possibility that Stride may have been involved in an unrelated altercation prior to her being murdered.
The police also investigated the possibility that it was a domestic and rejected that notion.
They could have made a mistake of course, but the odds are stacked against someone suggesting such a course.
.

Agreed

The BS man was described as being drunk. Again this would not specifically rule him out but the likelihood must be that the culprit had his wits about him to escape detection..

I don`t think he was that drunk or he wouldn`t have been able to throw Stride around.

Pretty much everything suggests the fatal attack was not carried out by the BS man.

I can see your conclusions lend themselves towards that answer but unless we start inventing other assailants everything points to BS Man as the murderer.

[Lechmere]

Ben
The misconstruction is all yours.
However much you huff and puff, Swanson and the Home Office annotator discuss the real possibility that the BS man did not commit the murder.
I would rather take note of their opinion than yours.

I don't know why you think the presence of the cachous is not consistent with a surprise attack.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"If he existed? You mean Schwartz was on magic mushrooms or something?"

Surely we are not stuck at this stage?

Sorry, didn`t even realise that there was a "stage".

[Wickerman]

I can see your conclusions lend themselves towards that answer but unless we start inventing other assailants everything points to BS Man as the murderer.

Hello Jon.
Because our picture of events that night is incomplete, the possibility of another person being responsible is not 'inventing'. As it stands today we know Stride was with 'Parcel-man' shortly before being assaulted, we do not know where he went. And, we do not know why Stride was standing in the gateway, nor whether she was alone.
'Parcel-man' is not an invention.

Swanson recognized the possibility for the intervention by another person, given both the time factor and her 'profession'.

[Lechmere]

Jon
As I said Swanson and the Home Office annotator have no problem 'inventing' another assailant. Therefore I haven't.

The known facts aren't that Stride as thrown down so she landed with her feet some two yards from the opening and her head more like three yards from the opening - disappearing into the pitch blackness of the court.

Swanson has it from Schwartz that she was pulled into the street and fell on the footway.
The Star story - which should be regarded as less reliable - doesn't say where she fell. It says the BS man pushed her back into the yard that is true.

According to Schwartz in the Star (the version of his story you prefer), the BS man was visibly drunk - not drunk and incapable but visibly drunk.

[Ben]

Chill out, Lechmere.

Nobody's "huffing and puffing". We're having a calm, civilized discussion.

I haven't misconstrued anything, and nor does my opinion contradict those of Swanson or the HO annotator. It is one thing to acknowledge that a "possibility" exists (even a "real" one!) for a given scenario, but quite another to claim that it is probable or even realistic. They were simply urging caution in the absence of absolute proof.

I don't know why you think the presence of the cachous is not consistent with a surprise attack

Because blind instinct would prompt her to release them as she fell. Conversely, if she was prepared for an attack, she would conceivably have clenched her fists in order to fend off her attacher.

[Jon Guy]

The known facts aren't that Stride as thrown down so she landed with her feet some two yards from the opening and her head more like three yards from the opening - disappearing into the pitch blackness of the court.

Swanson has it from Schwartz that she was pulled into the street and fell on the footway.
The Star story - which should be regarded as less reliable - doesn't say where she fell. It says the BS man pushed her back into the yard that is true.

According to Schwartz in the Star (the version of his story you prefer), the BS man was visibly drunk - not drunk and incapable but visibly drunk.

She was standing in the gateway
BS man tried to pull her into the street !!!! Big big difference
She was found with her feet just past the gates (4.5 feet or two steps away from where she was standing)

Sorry, having to dash, hence bullet form - stay calm

[Lechmere]

Sorry Ben
I thought I could hear the sound of huffing and puffing.
If Swanson or the Home Office annotator didn't think it was a realistic possibility I hardly think they would have bothered mentioning it.

Jon
Calmness prevails.

It is a fairly big difference as Swanson clearly says she fell on the footway.
Yet she was found in the yard, lengthwise away from the street - with her feet nearest the footway (maybe 5 feet away) and her head further away, roughly by the length of her body (maybe ten feet away).
That is a difficult manner to fall if thrown from the street - while retaining hold of those cachous.
And after being thrown, the BS man would have had to follow her into the yard and cut her throat. While she said nothing.
I have to say Ben's theory that she was coaxed into the yard with the threat of the knife is more likely.
But that means she regained her feet after being thrown down, still clutching those cachous and was so fearful she refrained from screaming even though the what was to become known as the Ripper scare was already in full spate.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry Ben
I thought I could hear the sound of huffing and puffing.
If Swanson or the Home Office annotator didn't think it was a realistic possibility I hardly think they would have bothered mentioning it.

Jon
Calmness prevails.

It is a fairly big difference as Swanson clearly says she fell on the footway.
Yet she was found in the yard, lengthwise away from the street - with her feet nearest the footway (maybe 5 feet away) and her head further away, roughly by the length of her body (maybe ten feet away).
That is a difficult manner to fall if thrown from the street - while retaining hold of those cachous.
And after being thrown, the BS man would have had to follow her into the yard and cut her throat. While she said nothing.
I have to say Ben's theory that she was coaxed into the yard with the threat of the knife is more likely.
But that means she regained her feet after being thrown down, still clutching those cachous and was so fearful she refrained from screaming even though the what was to become known as the Ripper scare was already in full spate.

Hi Ed

There was a footway running along the club wall.
Her head would be further away from the street than her feet, approx 5ft away ;-)

[lynn cates]

prostitution area

Hello Edward. Thanks.

"She was spotted talking to numerous different men in the street all evening."

Ah! Well, definitely a prostitute. (heh-heh)

"I don't get your problem with the location."

Berner was a quiet street. That night, it seems it had very few paedestrians. Prostitution? No, not a likely place for it. Better venue on Commercial.

As for basics. Do you mean Swanson repeating the local copper's dictum that she was likely soliciting based on her "get up"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

chorus

Hello Ben. Read your post about, If BS is real, then he most likely killed Stride.

Hallelujah! Agreed.

Having one's cake and eating it? Couldn't have expressed it better had I tried.

(May be love.)

Cheers.
LC