Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

In conclusion . . .

Hello CD. Thanks.

Well, I conclude that she was walking OUT of the yard with her assailant. I also conclude she was caught entirely off guard,

But with THOSE conclusions, I would conclude that BS was bs. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

The first part of your conclusion still escapes me but I do concur with the second part.

I still don't understand why you question Schwartz's veracity since he never said anything about the B.S. man killing Liz.

I know you don't like to (actually change that to won't) consider another killer coming along after the B.S. man left the scene but since Swanson considers it a real possibility, I would think that would give the idea some credence.

c.d.

P.S. Sorry, I have to go to the gym now and try and get rid of my beer belly.

[lynn cates]

mystery man

Hello CD. Thanks.

"The first part of your conclusion still escapes me but I do concur with the second part."

OK. My thought comes from Blackwell's comments about how it was done. IF he is correct, then that is the direction her feet must be pointed.

Phillips has her being placed on the ground by the shoulders. That would indeed explain her bruising, but NOT how the cachous were unspilled.

"I still don't understand why you question Schwartz's veracity since he never said anything about the B.S. man killing Liz."

That's true. But his being there . . .

Concerning another man. If Schwartz is truthful, BSM begins the fracas around 12.45. Let's say he does NOT kill Liz. What time do you like for fracas, Schwartz running away, and the end of the fracas? Maybe, 12.50?

Now the medicos claim she was dead by around 12.45-12.55. At most, Liz has 5 minutes to calm down, the mystery man to appear, Liz to retrieve her cachous, and then have her throat cut.

But most of all, the street was supposed to be quiet and deserted. With mystery man and all of Israel's people [BSM, PM] and now mystery man, it looks like a location teeming with people.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

When

Dave,
No we cannot be certain,but position of body,medical evidence,Schwartz information,to me indicate an initial encounter outside or at the entrance to the yard,and the killing some yards inside.No w if there was an intent to kill on the part of BS,before or at the instance he accosted Stride,or was accosted by her,why not do it when the opportunity presented itself after she had fallen or was pushed to the ground on the initial encounter.Schwartz saw her on the ground.It could not have been when she was in the darkness of the yard.Therefor I presume two separate attacks.
regards.

[Damaso Marte]

It is not every interested Casebooker who has a spouse or friend willing to go through the motions.

I got a girl to dress up as Liz Stride for me last Halloween, but a reenactment was not something she was willing to consent to for some reason. I've toyed with the idea of posting the picture on Casebook, but certain parties would vigorously object to the peaked hat and salt and pepper coat I was wearing...

[lynn cates]

tale

Hello Harry.

"No we cannot be certain, but position of body, medical evidence, Schwartz's information, to me indicate an initial encounter outside or at the entrance to the yard, and the killing some yards inside.

Have to agree. Of course, there be those who think she was sent hurtling through space for that distance--with cachous unspilled, no less.

"Now if there was an intent to kill on the part of BS, before or at the instant he accosted Stride, or was accosted by her, why not do it when the opportunity presented itself after she had fallen or was pushed to the ground on the initial encounter?"

Precisely.

"Schwartz saw her on the ground. It could not have been when she was in the darkness of the yard."

Quite.

"Therefore I presume two separate attacks."

Or, one attack and a tale.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Dave,
No we cannot be certain,but position of body,medical evidence,Schwartz information,to me indicate an initial encounter outside or at the entrance to the yard,and the killing some yards inside.No w if there was an intent to kill on the part of BS,before or at the instance he accosted Stride,or was accosted by her,why not do it when the opportunity presented itself after she had fallen or was pushed to the ground on the initial encounter.Schwartz saw her on the ground.It could not have been when she was in the darkness of the yard.Therefor I presume two separate attacks.
regards.

Thats the reasonable conclusion Harry..if Schwartz told the truth about where specifically he claimed the altercation took place. Ive said it before and perhaps its too easy to understand and not complex enough of an answer here for Israel and the question of how many attacks Liz underwent in less than 5 minutes.

Israels story, his justification for being outside the club at 12:45am on Sunday morning, was that he was going to check to see if his wife had completed their dwelling change. They were non-English speaking immigrants, their belongings would have been their clothes,... maybe a suitcase or 2, and perhaps something like a chair they've bought since arriving. He left her at 12pm on Saturday to move those things herself.

If thats the case, then why on earth should there still be things to move from his old address at 12am Sunday....(an address which Im starting to believe may have been as a temporary resident in the cottages in the passageway at 40 Berner....nobody has nailed it down yet).

If Israel was leaving the club, via the side door, leaving to go to his new address, and he saw what he claims took place only inside the passageway and on the spot where Liz is dropped or falls while being cut, then we have no need for 2 violent aggressive encounters resulting in Stride falling twice in her last few minutes, and we could understand reluctance to put Israel forward as a witness if the police discovered this link with the club.

If Israel was a member...or attended that club that night, he could only be viewed as a questionable witness...because of the obvious benefit the club gets from his off premises, antisemitic Gentile assault on Liz.

Cheers Harry...nice to see youre still chiming in.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Michael Richards

So in this scenario you have IS going back into the club then? Or deeper into the yard? Why would he effectively go hide when he witnessed a murder? Also would it not be too dark to see what happened with any clarity? All for the sake of having the initial part of the assault take place some yards away? The body is still found in the Yard. Seems a stretch. Unless I misunderstood your intent.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Harry

No we cannot be certain,but position of body,medical evidence,Schwartz information,to me indicate an initial encounter outside or at the entrance to the yard,and the killing some yards inside.No w if there was an intent to kill on the part of BS,before or at the instance he accosted Stride,or was accosted by her,why not do it when the opportunity presented itself after she had fallen or was pushed to the ground on the initial encounter.Schwartz saw her on the ground.It could not have been when she was in the darkness of the yard.Therefor I presume two separate attacks.

Depends on several things Harry. You see we don't have Schwartz's original statement in his own words - only an extract prepared by Swanson, and a slightly different account published in the Star, which reads a little differently in terms of the attack, (suggesting that the victim was pushed back into the passage rather than the street), and this is a great pity because if one credits Schwartz, then exactly what he says he saw, or thought he saw, is important.

Liz Stride's body wasn't a huge distance into Dutfields Yard. Her feet were just cleared by the 4'6" gates...so say her feet were two yards in...and whilst the Yard may have been pretty well pitch black in the shadows at ground level, we don't know what light there might've been at slightly more height...for example there were upstairs windows (shown both in some of the press illustrations and in the famous Berner Street photograph)...the jollifications upstairs surely suggest these were illuminated casting at least some light into the yard...and if indeed some of the cottage residents were awake as Michael suggests (for which I can find no evidence either way) then there may've been some light showing there too....perhaps not penetrating in either case to ground level, but there nonetheless.

Schwartz suggests (per Swanson) that he saw her thrown down...per the Star she was pushed back into the passage...unfortunately in neither does he actually state explicitly the manner of her casting down, whether the attacker followed her down, or exactly what happened next, apart from her screaming three times "not loudly"...alas for the missing statement.

I've no particularly strong feelings either way Harry, but even accepting Stewart's reservations regarding press articles (particularly from the Star - though they do seem generally well informed re the Stride case) I can certainly make out a case for Liz being attacked on the threshold of the Yard, suddenly bundled five or six feet backwards (not far) into the Yard, thrown down by sudden pressure to the shoulders and her throat being cut at ground level...an act which perhaps Schwartz couldn't see because of the deeper shadows...

Separately, a couple of the dissertations I've read by Gavin Bromley, do make me wonder whether the reason Schwartz wasn't called in the first four days of the Inquest was perhaps because he was initially treated as a possible suspect, being cleared perhaps by the end of the week, by which time it was too late for him to give meaningful evidence (the fifth day of the Inquest being so much later, and being chiefly a summing up)

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Dave.

"I can certainly make out a case for Liz being attacked on the threshold of the Yard, suddenly bundled five or six feet backwards (not far) into the Yard, thrown down by sudden pressure to the shoulders and her throat being cut at ground level...an act which perhaps Schwartz couldn't see because of the deeper shadows..."

But can this happen AND she hold the cachous?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Lynn

But whoever it was who took Liz down, did so with some degree of force (shoulder bruising etc around collar bones) and subsequently cut her throat at ground level...whoever, however, and the wretched cachous stayed put...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

bruising reply

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"But whoever it was who took Liz down, did so with some degree of force . . ."

Very well. But why, then, did she look as if gently lain down?

". . .(shoulder bruising etc around collar bones). . ."

The doctor claimed that this did not necessarily happen when she died.

". . . and subsequently cut her throat at ground level"

Close. I'd say about 2-3 feet above.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

Very well. But why, then, did she look as if gently lain down?

Think that was meant to convey the pose she was found in...ie not laying on her back legs akimbo, but on her side, slightly curled as if asleep...not that either necessarily reflect what has happened between assault and discovery

The doctor claimed that this did not necessarily happen when she died.

Yes that's fair enough Lynn...but his statement suggesting he'd been back to look at the marks anew suggest he felt they might be relevant.

Close. I'd say about 2-3 feet above.

Agreed it's possibly on the way down...Careful Lynn, you'll be jumped on like I was for suggesting such a thing were possible! As you know, I believe the fairly vigorous flow of blood towards the drain may indicate arterial bleed out from a partially severed carotid...

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"The first part of your conclusion still escapes me but I do concur with the second part."

OK. My thought comes from Blackwell's comments about how it was done. IF he is correct, then that is the direction her feet must be pointed.

Phillips has her being placed on the ground by the shoulders. That would indeed explain her bruising, but NOT how the cachous were unspilled.

"I still don't understand why you question Schwartz's veracity since he never said anything about the B.S. man killing Liz."

That's true. But his being there . . .

Concerning another man. If Schwartz is truthful, BSM begins the fracas around 12.45. Let's say he does NOT kill Liz. What time do you like for fracas, Schwartz running away, and the end of the fracas? Maybe, 12.50?

Now the medicos claim she was dead by around 12.45-12.55. At most, Liz has 5 minutes to calm down, the mystery man to appear, Liz to retrieve her cachous, and then have her throat cut.

But most of all, the street was supposed to be quiet and deserted. With mystery man and all of Israel's people [BSM, PM] and now mystery man, it looks like a location teeming with people.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Are we supposed to believe that Swanson missed all of your points when he gave his opinion that there was the possibility of another man being her killer? And it was probably a conclusion reached after discussing the matter with Abberline and maybe others. The medicos time was an estimate and I believe Schwartz could have been off by a few minutes as well. I think we could squeeze in a few more minutes if we tried and were so inclined.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

not rumpled

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"Think that was meant to convey the pose she was found in...ie not laying on her back legs akimbo, but on her side, slightly curled as if asleep...not that either necessarily reflect what has happened between assault and discovery."

But her dress was not even rumpled. No signs of a struggle.

"Yes that's fair enough Lynn...but his statement suggesting he'd been back to look at the marks anew suggest he felt they might be relevant."

Well, I would make that suggestion, too. If BS was real, then he may bloody well be responsible. But there simply MUST be a two stage attack with the cachous coming out between the two. But I can live with that.

"Agreed it's possibly on the way down...Careful Lynn, you'll be jumped on like I was for suggesting such a thing were possible! As you know, I believe the fairly vigorous flow of blood towards the drain may indicate arterial bleed out from a partially severed carotid..."

Oh, well, been jumped on before.

Cheers.
LC