Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Ben]

Hi Lynn,

A "movement to the throat" would almost certainly cause the victim to release whatever s/he may have been holding and reach straight for the throat themselves, either to stem the bleeding (i.e. from a throat cut) or in an attempt to prize off a stranger's grip.

Regards,
Ben

[lynn cates]

clinical trials

Hello Ben.

"If she was taken completely by surprise, she'd drop the cachous."

On the contrary.

"The only possible exception to this is if her attacker thumped her very hard in the neck, compressing the carotid artery and inducing cardiac arrest (which, I'm told, would result in a "gripping" action)."

Any movement to the throat would cause such a gripping. Reproduced in clinical trials. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sources

Hello Edward. What you say, if correct, sounds almost convincing.

"She was a known prostitute."

Who knew her to be such?

"She was listed as such in Sweden."

Indeed. When she was about 16 she had a child out of wedlock. And although it is fashionable today to do precisely that, I will waive the point. Instead, permit me to ask how long it had been since she had been in Sweden?

"She had a reasonably recent conviction in London for the same thing."

Can you produce the original source? This gets repeated, but, so far, no one has offered a copy of the original source.

"Different people came forward to say she still was a prostitute."

For example? This has been alleged before, but when brought forward, all I have seen is a news report where some chap says Well, you must do what it takes to stay alive. Not what I would call definitive or authoritative.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Lechmere,

But that means she regained her feet after being thrown down, still clutching those cachous and was so fearful she refrained from screaming even though the what was to become known as the Ripper scare was already in full spate

In my envisaged "knife-coaxing" scenario, BS could have said something like "I don't want to hurt you, I just want to have sex with you without paying, but scream and you'll be sorry" - that sort of thing.

With regard to the cachous, the fact that they were in her hand when her body was found is odd and difficult to explain, but my point is that it is considerably more odd and more difficult to explain if we accept the second attacker/surprise attack scenario. If she was taken completely by surprise, she'd drop the cachous. The only possible exception to this is if her attacker thumped her very hard in the neck, compressing the carotid artery and inducing cardiac arrest (which, I'm told, would result in a "gripping" action).

I get the impression Swanson only mentioned the possibility of a post-BS killer in order to avoid an overwhelmingly probable and obvious solution mutating into a factually established one, as that is how accidents happen.

Hi CD,

As for Liz hanging around after being "attacked", I can easily see that happening if it was simply a "that will teach you to mouth off to me, bitch" shove and nothing more.

I can't, I'm afraid. Not at all. It was more than just a shove - she was physically assaulted, a defenseless woman, and thrown to the ground. There were hundreds of better places to procure clients without remaining rigidly - and frankly, against human nature - in the spot of a physical assault.

Simply the cost of doing business on the street and one I am sure she encountered before.

Not twice, in precisely the same location, by two separate attackers, arriving within minutes of each other!

All the best,
Ben

[Lechmere]

The police at the time investigated to see if she might have been killed by someone who knew her and rejected that possibility. Of course it is conceivable they made a mistake, but basing a case on this with absolutely nothing to back it up is more than a little tenuous.
On the other hand various witnesses say she was hanging about the general area with different men over an extended period. Of course some or all of these witnesses may have been mistaken.
She was a known prostitute. She was listed as such in Sweden. She had a reasonably recent conviction in London for the same thing. Different people came forward to say she still was a prostitute.
The police were certain she was a prostitute and was killed in the course of acting as such.

Trying to present a scenario where she was not working as a prostitute but still hung aimlessly around Berner Street (and the police had no problem with the notion of her soliciting in Berner Street rather than Commercial Road) and voluntarily (or even at knife point) went into a dark yard - is I would say a little difficult.

[Hunter]

Hello Hunter,

The problem lies not with evidence, but lack of it. No alcohol no money and no semen.

Sounds like Annie Chapman.

[lynn cates]

nosy Scotsman

Hello Christer.

""We have a man who sniffs...!""

Told you that you could trust a Scotsman's nose. And that is my SOLE approach to the WCM. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

meaningless rituals

Hello Dusty.

"Certainly the fact the doctors looked for it, indicates they at least thought it would still be detectable."

Or else they had a penchant for meaningless rituals.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

stauetory rape

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Have you made enquiries if semen is still traceable internally 38 hrs later?'

Internally? She'd have been an unusually hardy soul not to have done interfemoral. But, yes, such a fluid leaves a stain. (Recall the statue of Praxiteles, "The Aphrodite of Knidos"? A Greek gent was overamorous and--well, you get the idea. [stauetory rape?--heh-heh] He left a "shameful stain.")

"On the other hand, if she was with the same man all night, then therein lies your answer - her plans were interrupted."

Only fitting to have yet ANOTHER interruption. Perhaps her plans fell through when she brushed him off for the night? Too bad, all those hours of preparation and not even 4d to show for it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello (again) Dusty.

"The problem lies not with evidence, but lack of it. No alcohol no money and no semen."

On the other hand, don't forget her get up.

And it's at least possible that some of the Liz sightings were legitimate (other than the Smith one). And IF they were Liz sightings, then it's possible she was speaking to more than one man.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

cute

Hello Dusty. Cute.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

You might find this hard to believe but the ability to detect the presence of alcohol was limited by the surgeons sense of smell.

I visited a famed Scottish whisky distillery in the nineties, together with my wife, who is a PhD specialized in fermenting things into alcohol. She asked the guide on the whisky tour whether they used gas cromatography or some other method like it to establish how the whisky was coming along in the distillery tanks. The answer: "We have a man who sniffs...!"

All the best,
Fisherman

[drstrange169]

Re Alcohol, I just checked and the 48 hour test wasn't available in 1888 so scrub that one.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wickerman,

I'm not quatified enough to agrue the case vehemently, but my research seems to show "mobile" semen are detecable for about 3 hours, "immobile" semen around 72 hours.

Alcohol detection post mortem is good for around 48 hours.

Hi Dusty.

You are probably looking at modern figures.

Certainly the fact the the doctors looked for it, indicates they at least thought it would still be detectable.

It was part of the formal procedure to remove the stomach and analyze the contents. However, there was no formal method to look for signs of anesthetics, narcotics, or poisons.
You might find this hard to believe but the ability to detect the presence of alcohol was limited by the surgeons sense of smell.

Dr. Llewellyn - "...there was no smell of alcohol in the stomach."

Virchows, Practical Pathology, 1892, provides no conventional methods to enable the pathologist to look for these substances.

[drstrange169]

Hello Wickerman,

I'm not quatified enough to agrue the case vehemently, but my research seems to show "mobile" semen are detecable for about 3 hours, "immobile" semen around 72 hours.


Alcohol detection post mortem is good for around 48 hours. Certainly the fact the the doctors looked for it, indicates they at least thought it would still be detectable.