Did BS-man murder Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"there is agreement here that the possibility existed and was acknowledged by the police."

Yes, the possibilities are endless. By the way, better back pedal to at least 12.56, as per Dr. Blackwell.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is 'thee' most likely scenario. What is being suggested, so far as I can see is that the 'other man' scenario is among the possibilities today, and was acknowledged at the time, and cannot therefore - by anyone in our day, be removed from the list.

[lynn cates]

possibilities

Hello Jon.

"there is agreement here that the possibility existed and was acknowledged by the police."

Yes, the possibilities are endless. By the way, better back pedal to at least 12.56, as per Dr. Blackwell.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternate forms

Hello Ben. Thanks.

"Unless you were jumping out at random female strangers and going for their throats. . ."

As the locals say, "Don't knock it till you've tried it." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

And if it was hellishly unlikely Swanson wouldn't have included it as a possibility nor would the Home Office mandarin have discussed the matter.
Read the reports - every hellishly unlikely possibility is not touted.
he clearly had 'no problem' with a second attacker or he wouldn't have raised the matter - it is as simple as that. Trying to reduce the probability to the BS man goes against the historical record, it really is as simple as that.

Lushington(?) was clearly in agreement with Swanson, as his marginal note explains:
"....but the suggestion is that Schwartz' man may have left her, she being a prostitute then accosted, or was accosted by another man, & there was time enough for this to take place & for this other man to murder her before 1.0"
(Ultimate, pp123/4)

I may have the name wrong but I thought someone identified these marginal notes as Lushington's.

Nevertheless, there is agreement here that the possibility existed and was acknowledged by the police.

[lynn cates]

needs

Hello Edward. I, too, have no overt problems with a second attacker. But likewise I have no problem should it fall out that there be extra-terrestrials. Currently, however, I have no solid reason to make such an assumption.

And, so far as I can tell, the ONLY reason to posit the possibility of a second attacker is that we "need" to perpetuate the myth of "JTR."

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

And if it was hellishly unlikely Swanson wouldn't have included it as a possibility nor would the Home Office mandarin have discussed the matter.

It was still a possibility, however hellishly unlikely, and that was all Swanson was pointing out. Lots of hellishly unlikely suspects came to the attention of the police (like Douglas Cow. for instance, who smiled at a woman in a way she didn't appreciate!), who still had to be thorough and go through the investigative motions in order to rule them out.

But it NEVER worked that way in my numerous trials

I'm rather relieved to hear it, Lynn!

Unless you were jumping out at random female strangers and going for their throats (which is the only way for the theory to be "empirically tested"), I'm quite sure it wouldn't. Which is to your eternal credit!

[lynn cates]

regards

Hello Edward. Thanks.

"I have read two press quotes that make it clear how she was regarded."

Ah, I already am convinced how she was regarded. Swanson's report makes that clear. But how to bridge from there to the truth?

I recall that, in two subsequent semesters, based on student evaluations, I was regarded as:

1. the Antichrist.

2. the second coming.

I am neither.

"I have seen reference to the court appearance but not the actual clipping - but the source is unlikely to have made it up in my submission."

Nor yet in mine. But nothing's like seeing the Thames Court say "10s for D & D; 10s for soliciting."

"I would be interested in hearing your detailed counter proposal in place of nudges and hints."

But I have none. I am suggesting only that we get the details straight before we attempt a coherent reconstruction of her time and place on the fatal night. That's all. Right now, I have serious doubts.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

And if it was hellishly unlikely Swanson wouldn't have included it as a possibility nor would the Home Office mandarin have discussed the matter.
Read the reports - every hellishly unlikely possibility is not touted.
he clearly had 'no problem' with a second attacker or he wouldn't have raised the matter - it is as simple as that. Trying to reduce the probability to the BS man goes against the historical record, it really is as simple as that.

[lynn cates]

empirical testing

Hello Be. Thanks.

Perhaps so. But it NEVER worked that way in my numerous trials. And there is nothing like empirical testing.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Those are open inhabited roads not alleys

I'm talking about the alleys and passageways that led off from Backchurch Lane, Settles Street and other Commercial Street feeders. These were obviously more secluded than a yard that was situated right next door to a noisy club. That's indisputable.

Swanson offered as an equal explanation that Stride was killed by someone after the BS man incident. He doesn't say which was the more likely possibility

He doesn't need to.

Because it is obvious, and utterly beyond rational dispute, that the man observed attacking Stride at around the medically estimated time of her death, and in the same location, was her probable killer. In outlining the mere possibility (which is ALL it is) that someone else arrived on the scene afterwards, he was simply offering a cautionary reminder that it wasn't conclusively established that BS was the killer. That's a lot different to saying he had "no problem" with a second attacker.

The Stride-Ripper victim argument doesn't require the mythical, hellishly unlikely arrival of a second attacker in order for it to work.

[Lechmere]

Those are open inhabited roads not alleys at a relatively early hour on a Saturday night -Sunday morning soon after chucking out time.
You don't know if there were any secluded spots in each place was and neither do I.
We do know Duffield's Yard was relatively secluded.

Swanson offered as an equal explanation that Stride was killed by someone after the BS man incident. He doesn't say which was the more likely possibility.
That being the case he and the local investigators on whose reports he based his summary had no problem with the notion that Stride hung around after the BS man incident.
Accordingly it is impossible to dismiss it as unlikely.

The BS man incident may well have been all in a days work for a low class back street prostitute.

[Ben]

Familiar with only that spot?

Extremely unlikely.

It's just not plausible that she'd return to a spot where she'd been attacked a few minutes earlier, especially given the wealth of alternatives.

...and can you point out a more suitable spot?

Well, any of the small alleys, yards and passages that led off from nearby streets - Backchurch Lane, Settles Street, any one of those would have done nicely.

[Lechmere]

Maybe she was familiar with that spot and maybe after ten or fifteen minutes she would have assumed that the BS man would be tucked up in his bed sleeping it of...
...and can you point out a more suitable spot?

[Ben]

Hi Lechmere,

I'd submit that if she was seeking clients on Commercial Road, there were many convenient spots in the vicinity that were better suited to a quiet knee-trembler than a yard slap-bang next door to a noisy club, especially one where she'd been attacked in the last few minutes.

Regards,
Ben

[Lechmere]

Ben
She may not have hung around the immediate locality.
In two minutes you can walk some distance.
She may have walked up to Commercial Road - found a customer and walked back with him to Duffield's Yard. That would take five minutes - there are still ten left. That is just an example.
If she found a customer on Commercial Road she would be unlikely to conduct her business on that particular thoroughfare.

As you say the holding of he cachous is odd. But clearly a prolonged attack involving several phases offers many more opportunities to release and drop them than a short one.

Lyn
I have read two press quotes that make it clear how she was regarded.
I have seen reference to the court appearance but not the actual clipping - but the source is unlikely to have made it up in my submission.

I would be interested in hearing your detailed counter proposal in place of nudges and hints.