Why No Stride Mutilations ?

[Aethelwulf]

thank you! of course there was a connection.

thing is i like a new theory and new ideas. for example, although i'm more than fond of sticking the boot into Lech I will admit that Fisherman has done a good job to present a case for someone who was at least at a crime scene, lived locally etc. Do I think he was the ripper, no way and it would take something new and very substantial/incriminating for any suspect to make me think them more likely than Bury.

Back to BS man/stride. Trevor's 'new' theory being the GSG has nothing to do with the ripper and Eddowes' just happened to drop a piece of apron/makeshift sanitary towel beside the GSG (at least i think that's what he's saying - no doubt he will take great delight in calling me a 'numpty' if that is not the case) - and there is no link between BS man/stride, lipski and GSG. Like I said, I like a new theory but what Trevor is presenting is just plain daft.

[Herlock Sholmes]

We have a sketch....

https://photos.casebook.org/displayimage5fa7.html?pid=464&fullsize=1

Cheers Joshua. He looks like a certain Liverpool cotton merchant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As long as you're considering POSSIBILITIES, Herlock, you missed one: Accident. The "boot-scraper" theory.

Or here's one that I've never heard: Stride has slipped into the Yard for "Sanitary purposes". Louis the Hawker comes in, the horse gets spooked, knocking poor Liz over onto the boot-scraper. So the HORSE is the Killer!

Only 208 posts and you’ve gotten the hang of it already. It took me around 10,000

[Abby Normal]

thing is i like a new theory and new ideas. for example, although i'm more than fond of sticking the boot into Lech I will admit that Fisherman has done a good job to present a case for someone who was at least at a crime scene, lived locally etc. Do I think he was the ripper, no way and it would take something new and very substantial/incriminating for any suspect to make me think them more likely than Bury.

Back to BS man/stride. Trevor's 'new' theory being the GSG has nothing to do with the ripper and Eddowes' just happened to drop a piece of apron/makeshift sanitary towel beside the GSG (at least i think that's what he's saying - no doubt he will take great delight in calling me a 'numpty' if that is not the case) - and there is no link between BS man/stride, lipski and GSG. Like I said, I like a new theory but what Trevor is presenting is just plain daft.

sure is. par for the course with him. along with the personal attacks.

and ive been saying for years the obvious connection between lipski, the apron and gsg disparaging jews. not to mention lawende and company being jewish and them also seeing the ripper (and the ripper knowing hes being interupted and being seen by more jews that night). the clues are there, if youve got eyes to see.

[harry]

One problem that is widespread is starting off with a conclusion that may not be true.What evidence is there that Stride was the female seen by Schwartz?I believe that probably she was,but probably is not enough.It would lessen the the chances of an involvement by Kidney if she were not,as no evidence involves Kidney in the murder of Stride.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One problem that is widespread is starting off with a conclusion that may not be true.What evidence is there that Stride was the female seen by Schwartz?I believe that probably she was,but probably is not enough.It would lessen the the chances of an involvement by Kidney if she were not,as no evidence involves Kidney in the murder of Stride.

It’s also not impossible that Schwartz could have been wrong about the time Harry. The incident could have occurred around 12.30 just before Smith passed along Berner Street and it might or might not have involved Stride. I don’t see anything far-fetched about someone looking back and getting an estimation of time wrong by 15 minutes. I reckon that we’ve all done it numerous times.

Its all speculation of course but Kidney might have been involved in a way. If he’d arrived drunk and seen Stride at say 12.30 outside the gates waiting for someone he might have tried to get her to come home with him. Hence the pulling and the confrontation (it might also explain why she didn’t scream very loudly…she was used to rough treatment from Kidney and didn’t feel in fear for her life). They then part company but Stride, for whatever reason doesn’t go far then returns to the yard where she meets her killer. Kidney at the Inquest has something of the ring of truth about him for me (which means next to nothing of course) when he describes drunkenly trying to get the police to do more to catch Stride’s killer and that he could have done a better job. Perhaps he had feelings of guilt about leaving her to her fate? And naturally he wouldn’t have wanted to admit to have seeing Stride just before she was killed so a lie at the Inquest would have been unsurprising.

No evidence for any of that of course but who knows?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

One problem that is widespread is starting off with a conclusion that may not be true.What evidence is there that Stride was the female seen by Schwartz?I believe that probably she was,but probably is not enough.It would lessen the the chances of an involvement by Kidney if she were not,as no evidence involves Kidney in the murder of Stride.

It means introducing another character into an already crowded scene, in which none of the players saw each other.

[FISHY1118]

It’s also not impossible that Schwartz could have been wrong about the time Harry. The incident could have occurred around 12.30 just before Smith passed along Berner Street and it might or might not have involved Stride. I don’t see anything far-fetched about someone looking back and getting an estimation of time wrong by 15 minutes. I reckon that we’ve all done it numerous times.

Its all speculation of course but Kidney might have been involved in a way. If he’d arrived drunk and seen Stride at say 12.30 outside the gates waiting for someone he might have tried to get her to come home with him. Hence the pulling and the confrontation (it might also explain why she didn’t scream very loudly…she was used to rough treatment from Kidney and didn’t feel in fear for her life). They then part company but Stride, for whatever reason doesn’t go far then returns to the yard where she meets her killer. Kidney at the Inquest has something of the ring of truth about him for me (which means next to nothing of course) when he describes drunkenly trying to get the police to do more to catch Stride’s killer and that he could have done a better job. Perhaps he had feelings of guilt about leaving her to her fate? And naturally he wouldn’t have wanted to admit to have seeing Stride just before she was killed so a lie at the Inquest would have been unsurprising.

No evidence for any of that of course but who knows?

I guess the only problem id have with moving the Schwartz time back to 12.30am is, what do we do with Morris Eagle ?

If his time is correct ,he claims ... ''I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''. Surley he couldnt have missed a dead body on the ground. ?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I guess the only problem id have with moving the Schwartz time back to 12.30am is, what do we do with Morris Eagle ?

If his time is correct ,he claims ... ''I returned about twenty minutes to one. I tried the front door, but, finding it closed, I went through the gateway into the yard, reaching the club in that way''. Surley he couldnt have missed a dead body on the ground. ?

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

[Aethelwulf]

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

but if you remove schwartz and bs man & lipski, why is eddowes' apron below the gsg? it is too much of a stretch to say it was already there and jtr just happened to drop the apron piece at that spot.

[Herlock Sholmes]

but if you remove schwartz and bs man & lipski, why is eddowes' apron below the gsg? it is too much of a stretch to say it was already there and jtr just happened to drop the apron piece at that spot.

I’m not particularly proposing the above Wulf. I was just suggesting that like other witnesses Schwartz might have been wrong about the time that he passed along Berner Street and so if he had passed earlier he might have witnessed an incident that didn’t actually end in Stride’s death (and in one ‘version’ perhaps BS man was a drunken Kidney trying to get her to come back home with him?) And then, sometime between 12.30ish and 1.00 for whatever reason Stride returned to the gates where she met her killer before 1.00. It doesn’t affect Eddowes apron ending up in Goulston Street.

[FISHY1118]

My suggestion (and it’s complete speculation of course and I’m not exactly promoting it) was what if the Schwartz incident didn’t result in Stride’s death? For example (and with approximated times.)

Stride is waiting for someone (call him Mr X) at the gates.
Kidney arrives drunk at around 12.30 and tries to get Stride to return home with him - hence the pulling and the not very loud screams. Schwartz sees this as he passes.
After a couple of minutes he gives up and walks away (as does Pipeman)
Stride heads toward Fairclough Street (perhaps hoping to find Mr X ?) but stops to talk to someone.
Smith walks alone Berner Street and sees them.
They turn the corner into Fairclough Street as the man tries to get Stride to go with him but she refuses.
They separate and Stride returns to the gates to wait for Mr X and gets killed by ?

I’d even say that it wouldn’t be impossible for Schwartz to have been 30 minutes out. It’s easier done than we might think (especially at a time when many people relied on things like church and factory bells.)

Im more incline to think everything happen after Eagle entered the club via the yard at around 12.40/41. There was, according to him no dead body on the ground , Schwartz time 12.45 for the incident with Stride fits , ,Diemschutz discoverd of the body at exactly 1.00am [ his words ] Dr Blackwells time ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m'' . Working back ,also fits his opinion how long Stride had been deceased.

I think its far more easier to work with what we know than what we dont . In this instance anyway.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Im more incline to think everything happen after Eagle entered the club via the yard at around 12.40/41. There was, according to him no dead body on the ground , Schwartz time 12.45 for the incident with Stride fits , ,Diemschutz discoverd of the body at exactly 1.00am [ his words ] Dr Blackwells time ''I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m'' . Working back ,also fits his opinion how long Stride had been deceased.

I think its far more easier to work with what we know than what we dont . In this instance anyway.

I wouldn’t dispute that Stride had to have been killed after Eagle had returned. Apart from Blackwell though we have no way of confirming exact times so we have conflicts which, although aren’t fatal to the series of events, give us leeway for various ‘recreations’ of the order that things might have happened. I’m not suggesting that Schwartz did pass at around 12.30 but I’d say that it wouldn’t be impossible for such an error of time estimation to have occurred. If this was what happened (and it’s a big ‘if’ of course) then it would mean that the Schwartz incident and Stride’s murder were two unconnected events.

In suggesting that the man that Schwartz saw ‘might’ have been Kidney, who lied about being there for obvious reasons, has its own issues of course. He would have been identified if stood in front of Schwartz. Then again….

Could we explain Schwartz absence from the Inquest by suggesting that Kidney found him and threatened him to keep his mouth shut?. So Schwartz in effect went into hiding somewhere?

[Sunny Delight]

What hasn't really been mentioned is just how similar Schwartz and Lawende's witness descriptions were. This is what convinces me that B.S man was the murderer.

Schwartz: Man aged around 30, 5 ft 5 inches in height, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, well built- broad shoulders. Dark trousers and jacket. Cap with a peak.

Lawende: Man aged around 30, 5ft 7 or 8 inches in height, fair complexion, fair moustache, medium build, pepper and salt jacket(grayish color with shades of black), grey cap with a peak, red handkerchief tied around neck.

For two witnesses to see a man with victims so close to their time of death and for their descriptions to be similar in the way they are says to me this is the same man. The descriptions are not identical but no one should expect them to be. But if we look at it both say the man was about 30, he had a moustache, fair complexion, peaked cap, of a medium to strong build and similar in height. Clothing is slightly different however salt and pepper is not wholly inconsistent with dark clothing.....

[Trevor Marriott]

What hasn't really been mentioned is just how similar Schwartz and Lawende's witness descriptions were. This is what convinces me that B.S man was the murderer.

Schwartz: Man aged around 30, 5 ft 5 inches in height, fair complexion, dark hair, small brown moustache, well built- broad shoulders. Dark trousers and jacket. Cap with a peak.

Lawende: Man aged around 30, 5ft 7 or 8 inches in height, fair complexion, fair moustache, medium build, pepper and salt jacket(grayish color with shades of black), grey cap with a peak, red handkerchief tied around neck.

For two witnesses to see a man with victims so close to their time of death and for their descriptions to be similar in the way they are says to me this is the same man. The descriptions are not identical but no one should expect them to be. But if we look at it both say the man was about 30, he had a moustache, fair complexion, peaked cap, of a medium to strong build and similar in height. Clothing is slightly different however salt and pepper is not wholly inconsistent with dark clothing.....

The questions that must be asked because identification issues are frought with danger

How dark was it?
how far away was the witness?
How long did the witness have the man in his view?
Had he seen the man before?
Did he know his name?
Had he seen him since?
would he recognise him again?
Anything distinct about the man?

It seems very few of these questions were asked of the witnesses

The description you refer to could have no doubt fitted half of the men living in Whitechapel

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk