Where is Liz Stride?

[Observer]

D this is getting silly.

Crossed it or stood on it?

Eagle passed through Berner Street on his way back to the club, in order to gain entry. He had taken his girlfriend home, and had returned through the small streets surrounding the club (his words) and returned to the club. Now it matters not whether he came up Berner street South to North, or down Berner Street North to South but pass through the street he did. Indeed if he had passed North to South, he would have walked straight past Mortimer stood at her front door.

Also, I've looked at at least 5 press reports, and can not see a reference to Mortimer hearing Deimshutz's pony and trap. When you have access to a computer how about a post confirming this section of Mortimer's account.

You know at this rate I'll be a Commisioner in no time. I'll be able to command the toe rags around here to erase the graffiti from the walls

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Observer,

Nobody passed through the street, ....... They're her words, not mine.

Hi DRoy.

May I ask, have you actually provided the scenario you envisage as to how Stride was seen prior to 12:30, but then found dead in Dutfields Yard at 1:00am, not many feet from Mortimer's front door, yet nobody....walked down the street? (Goldstein aside).

.

[DRoy]

Observer,

As i said, interpret it the way you want. Passing through the street to me means passing Mortimer's house. That is my interpretation. If someone crossed the street then I wouldn't use the words passing through the streets. If someone was standing on the sidewalk and went back into the club, I wouldn't say they passed through the street. Again, this is my interpretation but based on her words.

When I have access to a computer yes I'll post it for you.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Jon,

It isn't my scenario, the witnesses say so. They didn't see anyone.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Hahahahahaha stoppit you're driving me crackers.

Seriously, if someone was standing in the street ,Lave for instance, and he went back into the club then yes I'd agree he did not pass through the street. But Eagle passed through Berner Street on his way back to the club, thus he passed through the street. Also depending on where his girlfriend lived it's possible he passed down Berner Street North to South, and walked past Mortimers house. The point is, I think it's safe to say that Mortimer was indoors at this time, as she was for the vast majority of the half hour 12:30 a.m. through to 1:00 a.m. I believe she was a little full of her own importance, and the attention of the press went to her head a little, thus the attitude "I stood there the whole time and never saw anything untoward. Look at this quote from Mortimer

"I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the clubhouse, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gates with her throat cut from ear to ear. A man touched her face, and said it was quite warm, so that the deed must have been done while I was standing at the door of my house. There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates. It was just after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag,"

The deed was done while she was standing at ther front door, yeah right.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

From the Evening News, Oct. 1. I don't have the clipping but perhaps someone can post it for you.

"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body....
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."

Her words not mine. She states she saw him walking up the street which I interpret as towards her so when she says she didn't see a couple or anyone else passing through, I'd assume she meant passing her house.

The question was about the street being quiet and she responds yes except people from the club. Moving about doesn't mean dancing or singing. Singing and dancing would be moving. Moving about to me would mean coming and going.

Daily News October 1. Again, don't have the clipping.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement . It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Cheers
DRoy

[Observer]

Observer,

From the Evening News, Oct. 1. I don't have the clipping but perhaps someone can post it for you.

"Did you hear no sound of quarrelling, no cry for help?" I asked.
"Nothing of the sort, sir. I should think I must have heard it if the poor creature screamed at all, for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body....
"Was the street quiet at the time?"
"Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club. There was music and dancing going on there at the very time that that poor creature was being murdered at their very door, as one may say."
" I suppose you did not notice a man and woman pass down the street while you were at the door?"
"No, sir. I think I should have noticed them if they had. Particularly if they'd been strangers, at that time o' night. I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."
"Did you observe him closely, or notice anything in his appearance?"
"No, I didn't pay particular attention to him. He was respectably dressed, but was a stranger to me. He might ha' been coming from the Socialist Club., A good many young men goes there, of a Saturday night especially."Daily News October 1. Again, don't have the clipping.

A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement . It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had anyone done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and so it happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

Cheers
DRoy

Firstly thanks for the report regarding Mortimer and Deimshutz's pony and trap, The Daily News must be the only newspaper that I failed to look at.

It seems a trifle after the fact that she makes a reference to her husband regarding the cart's noise. As you have pointed out, she must have heard Deimschutz's pony and cart many times, strange that she should mention it to her husband.

The question was about the street being quiet and she responds yes except people from the club. Moving about doesn't mean dancing or singing. Singing and dancing would be moving. Moving about to me would mean coming and going.

I'd suggest you read the above account very carefully D. THe reference she makes to the club, namely

"for I hadn't long come in from the door when I was roused, as I tell you, by that call for the police. But that was from the people as found the body....
"Was the street quiet at the time?" Yes, there was hardly anybody moving about, except at the club"

refers to a time after she was roused by the calls for the police, and it does not refer to the time she was standing at her door, it is not a reference to Lave and Eagle

Her words not mine. She states she saw him walking up the street which I interpret as towards her so when she says she didn't see a couple or anyone else passing through, I'd assume she meant passing her house.Daily News October 1. Again, don't have the clipping..

Sorry you've lost me here

Mortimer stated that she saw only one man pass through the street while she stood at her door, that man being Goldstein. Eagle left the club at 11:45 to take his girlfreind home, he returned at twenty to two, he most definately passed through Berner Street on his way back to the clubs. As Mortimer saw only one man pass through Berner street that night, it follows that she did not see Eagle. Indeed if Eagle had travelled North to South down Berner Street on his way back to the club, he would of walked right past Mortimers door. She did not mention anyone passing her other than Goldstein. This implies she was not at her door at twenty to two. Add to this the fact that she did not spot Liz Stride at any time at all that night, and yet Stride was walking about Berner Street for more than an hour.

Let me ask you a question, you are of the opinion that Liz Stride first stood at her door from approx 12:35. Ok she might have just missed seeing PC Smith as he walked past Stride and the man with the parcel. Smith moved on. Liz Stride remained standing in the street with parcel man listening to the music. Why did Mortimer not see Stride and parcel man?

Let me ask you another question. What is your estimate regarding TOD? You obviously do not believe Schwartz, so the assault by BS man which many believe is the man who murdered Stride is irrelevant to you. But we also have the doctors opinion and he believed TOD to have been approx 12:45 12:55 a.m. Where was Mortimer during this time span? Standing on her front step according to her. Isn't it obviuos D that Mortimer was very mistaken as to the time she stood at her front door? Consequently it's entirely possible that she was indoors at the time in which Schwartz claims he saw Liz Stride being assaulted by BS man.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

I was still using my phone, but well worth it. Takes some time but getting a good conversation out of it makes it all worth it!

There are many newspaper reports within the same day and on the same page that conflict if you can believe it. I really do try to read them all, compare them against each other then other newspapers. Then on top of that how much is BS? Who knows. That's why we both have a unique situation since most of what we know about both Schwartz and Mortimer are from the papers since they didn't testify. You've got one up on me though, at least for a time there is records from police believing Schwartz, I don't have that!

In regards to your opinion Mortimer is talking about going inside the house first then saying the street wasn't busy...she must be talking about since she went out. If she comments to her husband when she goes to bed the streets were strangely quiet that night she must have meant while she was outside.

As I mentioned previously, I interpret Mortimer's comment "passing" means passing her and her house. I don't know how Eagle could have passed if he was approaching (aka walking towards Mortimer). If I were in her spot then this is how I would describe it.

We don't know what happened to Parcel Man but if they were having a good time listening to music then why would she leave him to hang out with BS Man? For all we know Liz and Parcel Man went into the yard to hide from the copper.

Hang on, you are saying that people in the club didn't hear Liz getting killed but you think Mortimer should have? I said she had good hearing but she isn't Superman. There is lots of chatter in the threads about the time of death. Based on my understanding, TOD could have been anywhere from a minute to 15 minutes. She could have been in the yard the entire time. Lave had to feel his way since he couldn't see. Eagle couldn't swear Liz wasn't already dead. And just to be clear, Mortimer didn't know the time since she figures she was in the house about 4 minutes before Liz was found which most accept closer to 1:00. It is possible Mortimer went inside and Liz came from a side street or Liz was in the yard the whole time. Again, i'm not sold on time of any witness but in this case we have Smith who would know better than anyone the time and we have Liz being found. There is also a very fascinating thread on 'time' which I recommend to everyone.

To be honest, there are some days like today where I lost track if time simply because of the amazing weather we had. Every minute at work felt like 5 minutes yet there are days where 5 feel like 1 minute. And we have clocks everywhere. Which one to believe in though? I always follow the work clock outside my bosses office which is about 5 minutes later than the others. Personal experience yes but if I had to testify to something, how did I pick my time and or what and where was the last clock I looked at? I'd sure hate to be a witness to something as crazy as the Ripper and expect to be exact.

Great chats by the way Observer! I'm not sold on any particular theory but you've got me on my toes to try and prove Schwartz wrong!

Cheers Bud,
DRoy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

hello and I request assistance...

About how long would it take to travel to Blackwell's from Dutfields Yard? Walking and running/hurrying. Much appreciated gratitude.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

There is some misunderstanding about who would be called to testify at the Inquest. It has nothing at all to do with whether their statement was given to the police before the Inquest, as was suggested. Witnesses that provided statements that had a direct bearing on what may have happened to Liz just prior to her death would be THE most important witnesses to call to the Inquest.

The fact that Israel Schwartz isnt called means just one of 2 things....either he was so important to the issues at hand that his statement is suppressed as they follow the leads he provided, or.....his statement was determined to have little or no value in the question of how Liz Stride may have died.

Since his alleged attack happens feet away from the actual murder site, and just minutes before the medical examiner says she was cut, his statement, if deemed accurate, would be the most important of all the witnesses.

We do not have any evidence that any of his story was withheld due to ongoing investigations, as we did with Lawendes testimony, so it is logical to assume his story was not considered viable.

Since he is an Immigrant Jew outside an Immigrant Jews club on the night when some 200 Immigrant Jews attended the club for a meeting of Immigrant Jews, and since his story for being there in the first place is ludicrous, I would imagine the authorities believed as I do....his story was strictly for the clubs benefit,.. not an accurate reflection of witnessed events.

There is a possible link between Wess and Schwartz as well.

Without Israel Schwartz, we have a young couple on the street, no-one else, and no sign of Liz Stride after PC Smith left. Which of course means to any thinking person, that she may well have been in that passageway...perhaps with her killer, BEFORE Eagle enters it at 12:40, and while Lave is lingering in it...yet, neither men saw anyone. Including each other.

Hard to believe.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

About how long would it take to travel to Blackwell's from Dutfields Yard? Walking and running/hurrying. Much appreciated gratitude.

Hi D.............,

According to Blackwell he was woken at around 1:10, and we know he arrived at the scene at 1:16...so, it would seem it took him under 10 minutes, allowing for some error, to arrive at the scene.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Blackwell was in bed so he dressed and grabbed doctor stuffs. Taking 1-2 min?. Then hurried to body, I hope anyways. One way travel time of 4-5 mins. This sounds reasonable? Has anyone walked/ran this before that would kind enough to relay there times? Many thanks!

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Dr. Blackwell was located at 100 Commercial Road, on the corner of Batty Street.

Check it out on a map.

Regards,

Simon

[The Good Michael]

The fact that Israel Schwartz isnt called means just one of 2 things....either he was so important to the issues at hand that his statement is suppressed as they follow the leads he provided, or.....his statement was determined to have little or no value in the question of how Liz Stride may have died.

Yes, his statement had little value in determining her death, so he wasn't needed. Why have someone who is difficult to communicate with, if you've already a statement and the inquest wasn't a place for police investigation.

Mike

[DRoy]

Mike,

Yes, his statement had little value in determining her death, so he wasn't needed. Why have someone who is difficult to communicate with, if you've already a statement and the inquest wasn't a place for police investigation.

That makes no sense at all. I think you'd be the only person claiming Schwartz wouldn't have provided any value at the inquest if his story were true.

I commented on this back in post 213.

Cheers
DRoy