Where is Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

Hello Garry.

As I'm sure you are aware, Ben, since eyewitness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, any superficial similarities between Broad Shoulders and Church Passage Man have to be viewed with a great deal of caution.

The first published description of the Mitre Sq. man (2nd Oct.) may have come from Harris.

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

A little taller than the man Schwartz saw, and no mention of him looking like a sailor in this report, that apparently came later.

For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

A point I have tried to raise many times. But, it is just as likely in my view that the couple Lawende saw were not Eddowes & the killer at all.

.

[Jon Guy]

Hi DRoy

Why is it you believe in Schwartz?

Because it`s a police statement held in the Whitechapel Murders files.

What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened?

I've said it thoughout many posts why I have no reason to doubt it.

It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it.

I`ve not heard this one before. Can you please explain?

James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it.

He saw the other couple who were hanging around on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St by the Chandlers shop.

[Observer]

Observer,
As you state, that is your contention. I on the other hand believe Mortimer would have been keen with her hearing since she seemed to identify many other sounds. If she was in her house when she heard footsteps, how could she not hear Liz?

If as Schwartz implied she cried out "not very loudly", then it's entirely possible that she failed to hear Stride. Especially so if she were in the process of performing some kind of task. Also you are of the opinion that Mr's M heard Diemschutz cart wheels, I've looked at several press reports and this was not mentioned. I'm not saying is was not reported, but I'd be obliged if you could supply me with the article?

. But unless she was whispering her screams, I would assume someone screaming three times would not be a normal occurance.

I don'y enjoy repeating myself but. As has been pointed out it's not possible to scream, not very loudly, which is what Schwartz stated. It's more than likely that this part of his account was lost in translation, and what he actualy intended to convey was that Stide cried out but not very loudly.

But why accept Schwartz or the existing report as being accurate?

Why do you not accept Schwartz's account? I'll tell you why, because Mortimer did not see him, nor did she hear Liz Stride cry out. It's been proven that Mortimer's account is faulty, it is perfectly conceivable that at 12:45 a.m. she was indoors, and failed to hear Liz Stride call out.

Why would Schwartz still be important if BS Man didn't kill Liz?

Because he was the last man to see Liz Stride alive, and he provides a reference point regarding the TOD.

Regards

Obsever

[Jon Guy]

Hi Garry

For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

But isn`t that the thing with homicidal maniacs?
If Lawende had seen him a couple of minutes later ....

In that instance, the man appears to be aware of Lawende and co approaching yet BS Man lays into Stride without apparently been aware of Schwartz behind him.

Aren`t we are dealing with a nutter of the highest order?
Peter Sutcliffe was calmly settling down in front of the telly within half an hour of one of his murderous frenzies.

[Observer]

I've said it thoughout many posts why I doubt it. Why is it you believe in Schwartz? What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened? It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it. James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it. Nothing does support it.

Hi DRoy

By including James Brown's statement to discredit Schwartz I presume you are taking into account the fact that both Schwartz and Brown both claimed to sight Liz Stride at 12:45 a.m. Would I be correct in assuming this to be the case?

You also wrote

As has been admitted a million times over in a bunch of different threads and posts, time is most likely wrong when people give it. Even a clock at the end of the road (Diemchutz) isn't necessarily correct. So lets give or take a few minutes for every witness. Mortimer could have gone outside at 12:35 instead of 12:30. Since Smith said he saw Liz at 12:35, it could very well have been 12:34 with Mortimer coming out of her house one minute later.

I don't know about you but I don't check my watch every time something happens in my life so I could document the exact time it happened. Plus who says my watch wouldn't be off a couple minutes from the true time or the next person's watch?

You want me to accept Smith couldn't be wrong about the time, Mortimer was wrong but Schwartz in the middle of running from Pipeman checked his watch and his watch is exactly correct with the actual time? Come on Caz!

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it DRoy. You concede that it's unwise to accept exact timings where witnesses are concerned, and then you ask us to believe that Brown disctredits Schwartz's because they sighted Stride at exactly the same time, namely 12:45 a.m. You even concede that Schwartz running from the scene might well have been mistaken regarding the time. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Regards

Observer

[lynn cates]

Mortimer

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Not necessarily, if a man like Goldstein can walk through the crime scene only noticed by Mortimer, how sure are we another male couldn't have appeared on the scene while Mortimer was otherwise occupied?"

Umm, I don't put much weight on her testimony. Did she see Smith and Liz and the lad?

"We do not have a complete picture of events that night, we are limiting ourselves to solving the puzzle with only half the pieces."

Much worse. Not only are there missing pieces, but others that simply don't belong.

"To be honest, me neither."

Now, you're talking!

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Seed of Chucky...

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. For all we know, she might have been there thinking Thomas Hardy was to autograph her copy of "Far from the Madding Crowd."

I think it more likely Lynn that Stride was waiting for Dimshits to autograph her copy of The Communist Manifesto...

Slightly adrift from this (but only very slightly) wasn't there a thread somewhere, where the two apparently conflicting Schwartz statements (the Police one and the Newspaper one) were compared, and it was established that the Hungarian words for "Pipe" and "Dagger" could sound very similar to a non-native translator? I vaguely recall it, but now can't find it...

This is good stuff. If a pipe is a dagger then Dagger Man may have slipped in and offed Stride......And of course Tom Westcott will tell you this is none other than Chucky LeGrand....


Greg

[DRoy]

If as Schwartz implied she cried out "not very loudly", then it's entirely possible that she failed to hear Stride. Especially so if she were in the process of performing some kind of task. Also you are of the opinion that Mr's M heard Diemschutz cart wheels, I've looked at several press reports and this was not mentioned. I'm not saying is was not reported, but I'd be obliged if you could supply me with the article?

Observer,

Of course its possible she didn't hear it but is it likely she didn't? As said, she obviously had good hearing since she could intentify other sounds including footsteps. Footsteps would be much more quiet than three screams even if they weren't that loud.

I don'y enjoy repeating myself but. As has been pointed out it's not possible to scream, not very loudly, which is what Schwartz stated. It's more than likely that this part of his account was lost in translation, and what he actualy intended to convey was that Stide cried out but not very loudly.

So you concede things could have been lost in translation but only when its convenient to your argument?

Why do you not accept Schwartz's account? I'll tell you why, because Mortimer did not see him, nor did she hear Liz Stride cry out. It's been proven that Mortimer's account is faulty, it is perfectly conceivable that at 12:45 a.m. she was indoors, and failed to hear Liz Stride call out.

Maybe Mortimer didn't see Schwartz because he wasn't there hence she didn't hear Liz because it didn't happen. Its been proven Mortimer's account is faulty? Who proved that?

Because he was the last man to see Liz Stride alive, and he provides a reference point regarding the TOD.

He was the last person who claimed to have seen her alive.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Observer,

By including James Brown's statement to discredit Schwartz I presume you are taking into account the fact that both Schwartz and Brown both claimed to sight Liz Stride at 12:45 a.m. Would I be correct in assuming this to be the case?

Yes that was my point. Is Schwartz believed over Brown because his story is more exciting?

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it DRoy. You concede that it's unwise to accept exact timings where witnesses are concerned, and then you ask us to believe that Brown disctredits Schwartz's because they sighted Stride at exactly the same time, namely 12:45 a.m. You even concede that Schwartz running from the scene might well have been mistaken regarding the time. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Observer, we both have chosen to pick witnesses to believe and picked ones to discredit. It isn't about having cake and eating it too. No matter which way you look at it, every person believing in Schwartz is discounting Brown and Mortimer while also ignoring Schwartz didn't testify at the inquest.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

Ripperologists of the world, unite!

Hello Greg. Thanks, comrade.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Observer,

Of course its possible she didn't hear it but is it likely she didn't? As said, she obviously had good hearing since she could intentify other sounds including footsteps. Footsteps would be much more quiet than three screams even if they weren't that loud.

Entirely likely she didn't hear the cries. The footsteps passed nearer to her house than the position where Liz Stride was assaulted. And as I said it's possible she was in the rear of her house, at the time of the assault, or occupied with some task or other.

So you concede things could have been lost in translation but only when its convenient to your argument?

You mistake me for another, I've never disputed the fact that it's possible that some phrases of Schwartz's account were lost in translation. It's certainly possible that sceaming but not very loud could have been mistranslated.

Maybe Mortimer didn't see Schwartz because he wasn't there hence she didn't hear Liz because it didn't happen. Its been proven Mortimer's account is faulty? Who proved that?

I beleive he was. Her account does not satisfy what happened in reality, that is, she stated that she stood at her door almost all of the time between 12:30 a.m. and 1:00 a.m. and she failed to see Smith, Stride, the man with the parcel, Lave, or Eagle. Not possible.

He was the last person who claimed to have seen her alive.

You asked me what bearing it would have on the crime should BS man not be the murderer, no mention of whether Schwartz told the truth or not. Lets face it DRoy the only chance you have of disproving Scwartz's account revolves around the accout Of Mr's Mortimer, and in my mind she's not a very reliable witness at all.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Observer,



Yes that was my point. Is Schwartz believed over Brown because his story is more exciting?

Not at all. In fact there's room for Brown and Schwartz to have been truthfull. As Jon Guy points out it's possible that Brown saw the couple who were at the juncture of Berner Street at 12:40 a.m. In effect Brown was 5 minutes out with his timings, a fault you fully recognise is possible.

Observer, we both have chosen to pick witnesses to believe and picked ones to discredit. It isn't about having cake and eating it too. No matter which way you look at it, every person believing in Schwartz is discounting Brown and Mortimer while also ignoring Schwartz didn't testify at the inquest.

Mortimer yes, possibly not Brown. For all we know there might not have been a translator available on the day that Schwartz was due to testify, a long shot I know but possible.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

I've said that if Mortimer had gone outside at 12:35 instead of 12:30 then she would have missed everybody. She like everyone else could have been off in the time.

Smith said 12:35 yet he didn't see Eagle.
Eagle said 12:35 yet he didn't see Smith.
Lave said 12:40. Mortimer couldn't see inside the yard because it was so dark.

The only people she didn't see were Schwartz, Liz or Pipeman if they were even there.

Schwartz would have had an interpreter. Because the East End was full of foreigners there would have been plenty of interpreters around. I believe that when Schwartz first gave his statement and his friend translated for him, there were things misinterpreted. If a follow up statement was done with a police interpreter they may have got the true story, a story in which he was no longer worthy of testifying at the inquest.

Cheers
DRoy

[Garry Wroe]

The first published description of the Mitre Sq. man (2nd Oct.) may have come from Harris.

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

A little taller than the man Schwartz saw, and no mention of him looking like a sailor in this report, that apparently came later.

If so, Jon, it means that Lawende, Harris and Levy each estimated a significantly different height for Eddowes' companion, the recognition of which is certainly consistent with the psychological research that has been conducted into the reliability of eyewitness descriptions.

A point I have tried to raise many times. But, it is just as likely in my view that the couple Lawende saw were not Eddowes & the killer at all.

Unlikely in my opinion, Jon. But then we do have a similar scenario in the Swallow Gardens murder when an eyewitness mistook a local courting couple for Coles and Sadler.

[Garry Wroe]

But isn`t that the thing with homicidal maniacs?
If Lawende had seen him a couple of minutes later ....

The one thing in this case of which I'm absolutely certain, Jon, is that Jack the Ripper wasn't a maniac.

In that instance, the man appears to be aware of Lawende and co approaching yet BS Man lays into Stride without apparently been aware of Schwartz behind him.

I doubt it, Jon. I feel sure that Broad Shoulders would have heard Schwartz's footsteps and seen Pipeman.

Aren`t we are dealing with a nutter of the highest order?

Had he been deranged, Jon, Jack the Ripper would never have been able to placate at least four successive victims and then control them at venues which were hardly sympathetic to his purpose. This man was a psychopath, not a psychotic. Try re-reading George Morris's various press statements to see whare I'm coming from.