Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

Et expecto . . .

Hello Roy. Thanks.

"I have to agree with Lynn. There is no evidence at all that Liz was prostituting herself. She may have been but there is nothing but speculation to say she was."

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. For all we know, she might have been there thinking Thomas Hardy was to autograph her copy of "Far from the Madding Crowd."

The prostitution angle is in place for one reason--to make her fit our expectations about "Jack."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

put it in a frame

Hello Ben.

"I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote."

This post is worthy of framing. IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Greg,

Since conspiracies are in the air let's extrapolate.

I believe the only person to provide a theory is Michael. Once you get past calling it a conspiracy, you'll see he makes some very valuable arguments and valid points especially about the witnesses.

Cheers
DRoy

[Bridewell]

Slightly adrift from this (but only very slightly) wasn't there a thread somewhere, where the two apparently conflicting Schwartz statements (the Police one and the Newspaper one) were compared, and it was established that the Hungarian words for "Pipe" and "Dagger" could sound very similar to a non-native translator? I vaguely recall it, but now can't find it...

Would this not give a little more consistency, and therefore credibility, to the Schwartz account?

All the best

Dave

Dave,

I remember this too. The two words were very similar. I know it was a female poster who suggested it. Caz? Rubyretro? Can't recall.

[Bridewell]

And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

I agree that they could be two different witnesses describing the same man, but it's a matter of perception. Some think the two descriptions are so much at variance that they have to be two different men.

[Bridewell]

The $64,000 Question

IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Who is the man if Schwartz is not telling the truth?

[Wickerman]

..... For the 500th time, when someone releases a statement to the press... What does that mean? In Mortimer's case, i'd assume for it to mean it was her chance to tell her story which would be the earliest account and truthful account and the less influenced account. Anyone else think different?

Hi DRoy.

"Releasing a statement to the press"?

We read that the witnesses gave a statement to the press in a number of cases. The press are hunting for sources, knocking on doors, asking if anyone saw or heard anything that night. The residents give an account if they heard or saw something and the reporter asks if he can use it.

There's really nothing more to it than that.

Detectives complained (Warren passed their complaint on the the Home Office), about reporters following them around. When a detective has finished interviewing, then a reporter knocks on the same door and conducts his own interview.
Reporters used the police to locate sources, but equally, because there are far more reporters on the streets than detectives, the police also used the press in the same way.
Because both sides needed each other there was a reluctant tolerance between the two.

.

[c.d.]

Hello David. Thanks.

"By the way, even those who don't make her a ripper-victim can assume she was soliciting that night."

Ah, a different logical fallacy. If I can collect just a few more samples, I can write my own text.

Cheers.
LC

Seriously, the sarcasm is getting out of hand.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Roy. Thanks.

"I have to agree with Lynn. There is no evidence at all that Liz was prostituting herself. She may have been but there is nothing but speculation to say she was."

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. For all we know, she might have been there thinking Thomas Hardy was to autograph her copy of "Far from the Madding Crowd."

The prostitution angle is in place for one reason--to make her fit our expectations about "Jack."

Cheers.
LC

So let's see. We have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night. It seems pretty damn reasonable to me that Jack might assume that she was soliciting. Of course, that doesn't fit the expectations of the non-Jack crowd.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Ben.

"I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote."

This post is worthy of framing. IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Cheers.
LC

Except that it was a pretty piss poor attack in the annals of attacks and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. And of course the cachous and the fact that Liz doesn't seem to be too afaid at this point hence the nature of her screams. And the fact that no one heard any argument after Schwartz left. And Liz's clothes don't seem to have been ripped which you would expect if she were pulled or dragged. Other than those things, yeah it had to be the BS man.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

filter

Hello Roy.

""Once you get past calling it a conspiracy, you'll see he makes some very valuable arguments and valid points especially about the witnesses."

But the idea is, articulate the "c" word and everyone hisses and boos and the argument falls on deaf ears. It's like daytime telly, if you hear something to make you think, just say "hatred" and you'll be drowned out.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

examples

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Seriously, the sarcasm is getting out of hand."

Actually, I sometimes cast about for examples of the logical fallacies for my classes. But these are all clear enough.

Sorry you feel it sarcastic.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Exactly, Lynn, and by extension if Jack killed Stride, then BS was Jack.

Hi CD,

If that's your take on it, it would be more convincing to argue that Schwartz made the whole thing up as opposed to envisaging a mystery second attacker scenario.

There is nothing about either the cachous or her screams to argue against BS as the killer. The presence of the cachous in her hand indicates preparedness for an attack, with is consistent with the altercation witnessed by Schwartz and not remotely consistent with Stride being taken by surprise (because she'd drop the cachous out of blind instinct in the latter scenario). Stride may not have had a particularly loud scream, or she may have been preoccupied with being pushed over and/or fending off her attacker. The fact that no argument was heard after Schwartz left can be explained by BS whipping out a knife and threatening to use it if she made any more noise. It doesn't necessarily follow that her clothes would have been ripped had BS pulled her about.

...and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man

Preferable to letting Stride go after getting such a close look at him, especially if he was the ripper.

Hi Mike,

Just on your last point about the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions, the only difference is that Lawende paid more attention to the man's clothes and less attention to his face, whereas it seemed to be the other way round in Schwartz's case. Also, a peaked cap would have stood out more conspicuously as "sailor like" in the City of London, as opposed to nearer the docks, where Stride was killed.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

second assumption

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"So let's see. We have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night."

Known by whom?

"It seems pretty damn reasonable to me that Jack might assume that she was soliciting."

Now you are assuming "Jack" killed her. Look, I've no trouble with assumptions nor yet bias. But why not admit it?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tom

Hello Colin. Thanks. (Almost missed you. So sorry.)

"Who is the man if Schwartz is not telling the truth?"

Umm, see Tom Wescott. He has a lovely rogues gallery.

Cheers.
LC