Where is Liz Stride?

[DRoy]

Observer,

My contention is that Liz Stride did not emit a very loud noise at all whislt being assaulted, not loud enough in fact for Mortimer to hear it inside her house.

As you state, that is your contention. I on the other hand believe Mortimer would have been keen with her hearing since she seemed to identify many other sounds. If she was in her house when she heard footsteps, how could she not hear Liz?

I also gave some possibles reasons why she did not shout out loudly whilst being attacked.

Possible reasons sure. But unless she was whispering her screams, Mortimer would have heard it. As I mentioned, she lived in that house at least seven years. She would know and identify what the common sounds were. I would assume someone screaming three times would not be a normal occurance.

The problem with Mortimer (and this problem has been debated many times) is that she stated that she stood at her door for most of the period between 12:30 and 1:00 a.m. she stated she saw only one individual, Goldstien. Had she actually been at the door for the length of time she stated she would have saw Schwartz et al. It's plain she is not a reliable witness.

But why accept Schwartz or the existing report as being accurate?

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Why would Schwartz still be important if BS Man didn't kill Liz?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Semper,

Speaking for myself, I always thought of Mrs Mortimer as the neighborhood gossip or busybody. I could see her fibbing or been mistaken on the length of time she was out there. I can't speak for anybody else but that's the way I always saw her.

Based on what? She could have made up any story she wanted to. For example she could have said she saw a man try to pull Liz in to the street while a man leaning up against the wall was smoking a pipe! (I'm joking of course!!) Actually, Mortimer is quite obviously the opposite. She said she saw nothing out of the ordinary nor did she hear anything suspicious.

Cheers
DRoy

[c.d.]

Lynn,

When I said he was only on the stage for only a short time I was referring to Schwartz not Jack.

Michael,

I know you want the time to be set in stone but it just aint so. There was plenty of time for Jack to do his thing. And as for the BS man being Liz's killer there are numerous red flags with that scenario which have been discussed ad nauseum.


c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Slightly adrift from this (but only very slightly) wasn't there a thread somewhere, where the two apparently conflicting Schwartz statements (the Police one and the Newspaper one) were compared, and it was established that the Hungarian words for "Pipe" and "Dagger" could sound very similar to a non-native translator? I vaguely recall it, but now can't find it...

Would this not give a little more consistency, and therefore credibility, to the Schwartz account?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

5 minutes

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time."

Indeed. But, if Schwartz were lying and were called out on time, he could "regret" the error and backdate by 5 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man."

Oh, please.

"I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection."

Perhaps you are thinking "oral sex" to save an untenable theory?

"He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back. . ."

Considering how far Schwartz tailed him, surely a delayed reaction?

". . . and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses."

After all that time, supposedly in pubs that night, now she refuses? Very well. But where were they to drink? Weren't the pubs all closed?

"Drunk and angered. . ."

You forgot the malaise after his interlude with Liz.

". . . he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz."

And the lads who were in the yard at 12.40 respectfully averted their gaze? OK, just as you wish.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Getting a wee bit sarcastic of late are we not?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Just throwing this out here so no need to jump on me. (and don't make a smart remark about throwing the idea out).

What if the BS man and Liz hooked up and he (how to put this delicately) didn't feel like he got his money's worth if you get my drift. Could he have gone off, thought about it for a minute or so and then came back to get his money? If he threatened Liz to give him his money would it be a huge leap to say give me everything you have?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

believable

Hello Cd. Thanks.

So sorry. But if it could be kept quasi-believable . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

circle

Hello (again) CD.

The problem is that you already assume Liz is soliciting and killed by "Jack."

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

A: "Because she was killed by "Jack" and he killed prostitutes."

Q: "How do we know she was killed by "Jack"?"

A: "Who else would kill a woman for prostituting?"

These feed on each other.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

Hi Lynn,

True. For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack. They might be trying to find a fourth for pinochle.

Mike

[DVV]

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

LC

Hi Lynn,

because she was a prostitute in Berner Street (see the thread "Selling matches and soliciting"). (Of course, you can argue that there is no evidence she was selling matches.)

By the way, even those who don't make her a ripper-victim can assume she was soliciting that night.

Slainte

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time."

Indeed. But, if Schwartz were lying and were called out on time, he could "regret" the error and backdate by 5 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

Blimey Lynn, this is silly and a little bit desperate, and not worthy of a reply .. oops, too late I`ve replied.

[caz]

Sorry for sticking me big nose in there, Caz. I thought you may have gone away for a day or two and I was on a roll ..

As you will know it would have only took 2 or 3 mins to walk down Berner St to the junction... if we`re boiling it down to minute by minute timings.

Hi Jon,

Your big nose is more than welcome.

Yes, an awful lot can happen in each 60-second period. It's odd that this tends to get forgotten by the very people who rely on the accuracy of the reported timings for their theories to hold up.

Love,

Caz
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[lynn cates]

petitio principii

Hello Michael. Thanks.

"For that matter, why does everyone assume that crack dealers out on the street in Miami are there to sell crack."

For a crack dealer to be a crack dealer, crack must be dealt.

So your argument is:

"Well, Liz must have been soliciting, after all, that's what prostitutes do."

I leave it to you to name that logical fallacy.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Regards

Observer

Hi Observer,

Yes, it is piffle. And it wouldn't need to be a coincidence either, if her killer simply saw the opportunity to lend her a 'helping hand'. Most men out on the streets at night would have seen unfortunates being sworn at, insulted or manhandled in some way.

I do believe it's possible, however, for BS man to have gone on to kill Stride. There was plenty of time for him to walk off after the witnessed altercation, then turn round and walk back when Schwartz and Pipeman had cleared off. Stride would have been collecting herself, unaware that he had unfinished business with her if he was seriously pissed off by then.

Love,

Caz
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