Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

toupee

Hello Roy. Thanks.

A toupee, perhaps? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi DRoy

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Well, if Mr Richards, the Security guard admitted he wasn`t watching the whole time (like Fanny Mortimer did) there really isn`t a problem.

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

:-)

[DRoy]

Lynn,

A toupee, perhaps? (heh-heh)

I had your "other site" picture in mind when I wrote my elaborate script

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

My mistake. Please allow me to continue...

Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him almost the entire time. He didn't take anything otherwise I would have seen him.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?
Employee Jon Guy: Well I guess you're right DRoy, you at least saw something and Michael didn't.
c.d.: Haha! Those Casebook guys are so stupid, it was me the whole time! I'm going to write them a cryptic letter. I shall call it The Saucy Jack letter and start off with the words "Dear Boss"! Brilliant!!

[Abby Normal]

All

I keep hearing about that nothing corroberates Scwartz story-I would respectfully disagree.
He described a man with a peaked cap as did:

PC Smith
Marshall
Lawende

C,mon folks
Four witnesses describe a man seen with the victim(s) with the same hat.
It not only corrobarates IS's story but each others.

My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

[Abby Normal]

Jon Guy,

My point about the Saucy Jack postcard is that if you going to use it as another detail that supports Schwartz then you have to rely on the authenticity. Otherwise you'd be saying a hoax supports Schwartz which could move Schwartz's story into hoax territory.

Schwartz could have lied purposely. He could have been a forgetful person and said the wrong time. Maybe he couldn't tell time and just guessed. Maybe he was misinterpreted. Maybe his statement was jotted down incorrectly. Maybe nobody saw him because he wasn't there. Maybe maybe maybe. All supposition. So is accepting it at face value. All of these in my opinion could lead us to the exact same spot we're in. I'm not saying any of them are true, just trying to say it is possible.

I don't know, maybe I'm asking too much of a witness. I just don't see a difference between Mortimer's statement and Schwartz's statement other than he claims to have seen something and she claims not to have. For whatever reason, most others accept Schwartz and discount Mortimer.

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

Cheers
DRoy

DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Schwartz

(sorry, couldn't resist)
; )

[lynn cates]

covered

Hello Roy. thanks.

"I had your "other site" picture in mind when I wrote my elaborate script"

Ah! Good reason to wear a hat.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

common

Hello Abby.

"He described a man with a peaked cap"

Yes, but they were not uncommon. And a deerstalker looks like a peaked cap from full frontal view.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

"He described a man with a peaked cap"

Yes, but they were not uncommon.

I think Abby makes a good point.

Apart from BS Man, Marshall`s Man and Church Passage Man who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap? I can only think of Sadler and George Chapman. They weren`t that common. But three or four sightings of men wearing peaked caps within a few hours?

[DRoy]

I keep hearing about that nothing corroberates Scwartz story-I would respectfully disagree.
He described a man with a peaked cap as did:

PC Smith
Marshall
Lawende

C,mon folks
Four witnesses describe a man seen with the victim(s) with the same hat.
It not only corrobarates IS's story but each others.

My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

Abby,

Marshall apparently saw Liz with someone wearing a peaked cap more than an hour before she was killed. Smith saw Liz's gentleman with a deerstalker hat. Lawende? So the only person wearing a peaked cap was the ripper within a 3 hour period? Seriously?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Schwartz

(sorry, couldn't resist)
; )

Now that's funny!!!

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

in peak condition

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap?"

Umm, well, Mrs. Long's "foreign looking" man wore a deerstalker. Also, the early reports of "Leather Apron" sometimes had him in a deerstalker. Unless seen in profile or from behind, the deerstalker looks like a peaked cap--which it is.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To answer a couple of questions posed....it appears that its possible Wolff Wess did the translations for Israel Schwartz, as he did for Leon Goldstein on the Tuesday following. That point is interesting when you consider, as I said, that its possible Wess and Schwartz were acquainted a few years before this incident. Someone is investigating that link as we speak I believe.

Witnesses gave statements to press and the police on the morning of the murder, and they were interviewed after the fact by additional press people. Small variances in story lines isnt a huge problem, but as has been pointed out, Fanny Mortimer does say that she was at her door from 12:30 until 1am,.. but she also is quoted as saying she was at her door "off and on" until she spent the last 10 minutes of that hour at her door continuously. The "off and on" quote to me has more credibility, its more likely she popped in and out during that 20 minutes.

Israel Schwartz claims he came upon Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45am.....yet neither witness from the club who were at the gates at some point between 12:30(Lave), and 12:40 (Lave/Eagle), saw anyone. No Israel, no BSM, and no Liz. The street was as one witness put it, "deserted". Fanny, from 12:50 until 1am, sees only the young couple. No Louis and Cart approaching, or arriving, since Louis claims he arrived at 1. Edward Spooner approximates what time he was at the Beehive with his lady friend by virtue of his time leaving the pub and a casual 20 minute walk to arrive at that location.

He says, at the Inquest and to the press, that he saw the men calling for help and went with them to the gates at around 12:40-12:45. Everyone seems to believe he was mistaken about his time. But 3 club members, including Isaac Kozebrodski, stated to the police within 1 hour of the murder that they heard about the woman on the ground approx 10 minutes after the half hour, so....approx 12:40ish. Issac also said he went to search for help alone just after that, and Louis claims that he went with Issac[s] around 1:05am.

As for witnesses seeing peaked caps, Marshall saw Liz to early to be of any use, and Lawende described someone dressed much differently than the Berner "suspect" described by Schwartz. PC Smith is reliable, but again, he saw Liz at least 10 minutes before she is accosted and killed. And as I point out in the thread, no-one sees Liz after that other than Israel...the witness with the most important sighting if accurate, and the only witness that we speak of in this murder case that is not an Inquest Witness. His story is not validated...it is uncorroborated...and absent from the formal proceedings.

Brown saw the young couple almost certainly...the woman had no flower or maidenfern on her. Fanny saw the young couple. Thats validation.

Liz Stride seems to go somewhere just after PC Smith leaves, and according to club witnesses, that isnt into the passageway or yard.

So...where is Liz Stride?

Cheers

[DRoy]

Michael,

I know you're trying to figure out where Liz is but I think the first mistake is accepting random press reports as legit. For the 500th time, when someone releases a statement to the press... What does that mean? In Mortimer's case, i'd assume for it to mean it was her chance to tell her story which would be the earliest account and truthful account and the less influenced account. Anyone else think different?

As much as it is interesting what witnesses may have to share about Liz prior to her 'unfortunate' death, it doesn't really help us if Schwartz is to believed. This is where I understand Michael's supposition where he takes Schwartz out. Right or wrong, for his theories, does it make sense in the "grand" theme of things?

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

To all,

You have ro wonder, would Lave or Eagle see Mortimer? She is the people watcher, not them. They have a place to go, Mortimer doesn't. She's checking out the scenery like she probably always does. There are people watchers out there and when you're sitting stagnant while everyone else moves around, chances are you see what they don't. Supposition again but think about it.

Cheers
DRoy