Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

The Invisible Man

Hello CD. Thanks.

Your first paragraph is an EXCELLENT reason not to believe--in BS man.

OK. Liz is with a client. Jack. And where is he whilst the fracas with BS is supposed to be happening?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I think it is also an excellent reason to think that there was a BS man and that he was only a minor player who was on the stage for only a brief moment.

Where was Jack? I have to imagine that he was nearby and that possibly he witnessed the whole thing. But Jack had to be somewhere on the planet and he had no control over what preceeded his entrance on stage.

Isn't there a name for the fallacy that if A precedes B then A caused B or something to that effect?

c.d.

[c.d.]

As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man. I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection. He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses. Drunk and angered he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz.

c.d.

[DRoy]

c.d.

I'm not saying I agree with Michael's theory that Schwartz was trying to steer suspicion away from the club. I'm not even necessarily saying Schwartz is lying. What I've said is he could have been just as mistaken about the time as anyone could have been, there could have been things misinterpreted or lost in translation between Schwartz, the interpreter and the note taker, etc.

Mortimer lived in that house for at least seven years before Liz's murder. She knew the sounds, she would have recognized many of the people that went to the club and those that passed her house often. She at least witnessed Goldstein who we know was there.

Schwartz on the other hand couldn't speak English, nobody could verify what he 'meant' to say, and nobody can verify he was there.

This is just observation, not a theory of mine.

Cheers
DRoy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

I've just been reviewing the witness statements provided on this website. I'm gettin a feeling that Dimschits' arrival at Dutfield's Yard may not have been quite so close to 1am as he stated. May explain somethings. Muddle others. Standard procedure for this case. Just throwing it out there.

[Jon Guy]

DRoy

Schwartz on the other hand couldn't speak English, nobody could verify what he 'meant' to say,

The Police at Leman St had a plethora of translator`s available to them. A number of translators lived within a few yards of the Police station on Leman St and would have been called upon when a police statement had to be made.
I can`t imagine for one minute that the Police would sit opposite Schwartz and Wess (?) and just accept everything they were been told.

and nobody can verify he was there.

Well. the details of his statement fit all the other statements available, as the fruits of this thread show.
In fact, the screams Schwartz heard agree with the squeals the author of the Saucy Jack postcard boasted of. The postcard arrived on Mon, 1st Oct and Schwartz gave his statement on Sun 30th Sept, and was mentioned in the press on the 1st Oct.

[lynn cates]

non causa pro causa

Hello CD. Thanks.

"I think it is also an excellent reason to think that there was a BS man and that he was only a minor player who was on the stage for only a brief moment."

Brief? What Schwartz described (truly, or otherwise) surely took some time. Add to that his finally getting alone with Liz, calming her, getting her into the yard and with the cachous, killing her, etc, well . . .

"Where was Jack? I have to imagine that he was nearby. . . "

Well, if there was a "Jack" and he killed Liz, then "nearby" seems correct.

". . .and that possibly he witnessed the whole thing."

Of course, not observed by Schwartz.

"But Jack had to be somewhere on the planet. . . ."

If he existed, obviously.

"Isn't there a name for the fallacy that if A precedes B then A caused B or something to that effect?"

There is indeed. It is called, "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." It is a species of non causa pro causa. I think of this latter fallacy everytime I see a post about Annie's throat was cut by "Jack," therefore Liz's throat was cut by Jack."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

time line

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man."

Oh, please.

"I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection."

Perhaps you are thinking "oral sex" to save an untenable theory?

"He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back. . ."

Considering how far Schwartz tailed him, surely a delayed reaction?

". . . and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses."

After all that time, supposedly in pubs that night, now she refuses? Very well. But where were they to drink? Weren't the pubs all closed?

"Drunk and angered. . ."

You forgot the malaise after his interlude with Liz.

". . . he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz."

And the lads who were in the yard at 12.40 respectfully averted their gaze? OK, just as you wish.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Behold, Dimshits cometh.

Hello DLDW.

When would you suggest Dimshits arrived?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

First off, thanks for playing. And to address a few things that have been said, the issue of BSM is that he would almost certainly have been Liz Strides killer cd, the timing of an assault with the throat cut doesn't really allow for your Jack fellow to pop in afterward. And as Lynn points out...hardly Ripper material, to semi quote Balin in the Hobbit.

As for Fanny, she did make several statements, one of which I posted at the start of this thread, but in essence what she claims is that off and on, she was at her door from 12:30 on...until approximately 12:50, when she says that she was at the door continuously until about 1:00am.

There is of course room to speculate she was away from her door when these things supposedly happened, between 12:35 and 12:50am, but that last 10 minutes seems to be covered. Which begs a few questions, if true.

Why didn't she see Louis Diemshutz arriving around 1am, or at least, approaching? If Liz Stride is in the passageway after 12:35, and it was empty at 12:40 as suggested by Eagle and Lave...., who was at the gates around 12:30 also, then where is Liz? If she is in the yard, and with a Ripper, then why doesn't she die there ripped? I have a few other questions but perhaps someone can address these?

Cheers all

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

I could be mistaken but I thought it was one of Schwartz's friends that translated. (No time to confirm this). Regardless, i'm not sure what you mean his statements match others? If you are talking timeline there is nothing that is commented on that shows how Schwartz fixed his time.

Saucy Jack postcard? That's the evidence to support Schwartz? Apparently its been proven that whoever wrote the Saucy postcard also wrote the dear boss letter. I think it would be much more difficult to show that 'Jack' killed the first three and wrote those two correspondences. You'd also either have to believe BS Man was 'Jack' or that 'Jack' killed Liz after BS Man assaulted her. Not to mention all the problems with the two letters. All that is a lot of faith instead of looking at Schwartz instead being a bit off in his time or that he was misinterpreted.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

I asked it before in another thread on McCarthy but it wasn't answered...when someone gives a statement to the press, what does that mean? Does it mean they wrote a letter? It isn't an interview from a reporter so how does one go about it?

There are small variances in her statement to the press and not sure how that could happen.

There are definite differences in some stories about Mortimer but they aren't from her. They must be from a neighbor but they are not all her statements. They are told in third person. I know at least one paper gave her statement and the third person story on the same page but in two separate articles.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

...but in essence what she claims is that off and on, she was at her door from 12:30 on...until approximately 12:50, when she says that she was at the door continuously until about 1:00am.

In essense? She didn't say that at all.

There is of course room to speculate she was away from her door when these things supposedly happened, between 12:35 and 12:50am, but that last 10 minutes seems to be covered. Which begs a few questions, if true.

Why didn't she see Louis Diemshutz arriving around 1am, or at least, approaching? If Liz Stride is in the passageway after 12:35, and it was empty at 12:40 as suggested by Eagle and Lave...., who was at the gates around 12:30 also, then where is Liz? If she is in the yard, and with a Ripper, then why doesn't she die there ripped? I have a few other questions but perhaps someone can address these?

She said she was outside almost the entire time between 12:30 - 1:00. That could mean she went outside at 12:32 and inside at 12:55 and therefore would have been outside almost the entire time. She said she had just gone inside and was getting ready for bed when she heard Diemshutz arrive. That's how she couldn't see him arrive. Did he arrive at 1:02? 12:58? Exactly 1:00?

Can't answer your other questions as nobody saw Liz after Smith unless Schwartz's story is true.

Cheers
DRoy

[Jon Guy]

DRoy

Regardless, i'm not sure what you mean his statements match others?

What I mean is that according to all the witnesses no-one else was apparently about Berner St at 12.45 except Schwartz, BS Man, Stride and Pipeman. The details of his statement don`t clash with any other witness statements.

Saucy Jack postcard? That's the evidence to support Schwartz?

It`s just another detail that supports what Schwartz saw.

Apparently its been proven that whoever wrote the Saucy postcard also wrote the dear boss letter.

I don`t think it has been proven. We don`t know who wrote the two letters. But it`s best not too make much out of them. I was merely pointing out a detail in the letter that corresponded with Schwartz`s statement.

You'd also either have to believe BS Man was 'Jack'

Well, he was the one assaulting her at a possible TOD

or that 'Jack' killed Liz after BS Man assaulted her.

Possible of course, but now we are inventing stuff for this to happen.

All that is a lot of faith instead of looking at Schwartz instead being a bit off in his time or that he was misinterpreted.

If he was out in his time wouldn`t he have been seen by one of the many other witnesses?
Wouldn`t he have seen the same clock at the top of the road that Diemschitz used?

There is the possibility that he was misinterperated but basically he saw the murdered woman struggle with a man at a possible TOD.

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

My point about the Saucy Jack postcard is that if you going to use it as another detail that supports Schwartz then you have to rely on the authenticity. Otherwise you'd be saying a hoax supports Schwartz which could move Schwartz's story into hoax territory.

Schwartz could have lied purposely. He could have been a forgetful person and said the wrong time. Maybe he couldn't tell time and just guessed. Maybe he was misinterpreted. Maybe his statement was jotted down incorrectly. Maybe nobody saw him because he wasn't there. Maybe maybe maybe. All supposition. So is accepting it at face value. All of these in my opinion could lead us to the exact same spot we're in. I'm not saying any of them are true, just trying to say it is possible.

I don't know, maybe I'm asking too much of a witness. I just don't see a difference between Mortimer's statement and Schwartz's statement other than he claims to have seen something and she claims not to have. For whatever reason, most others accept Schwartz and discount Mortimer.

DRoy: I saw Lynn Cates shoplifting a hat from your store
Employee Jon Guy: Really? I'll ask the security guard if he saw anything. Sir, did you see a hat being stolen?
Security Guard Michael Richards: I was watching him the entire time. He didn't take anything.
Employee Jon Guy: That's weird, I am missing a hat!!
DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

(We've already had the seven dwarfs, a riddle, and now a script in this thread! Why not!)

Cheers
DRoy