6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Observer]

The essence of Fanny Mortimers statement indicates that although she was at her door off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, when she was there continuously until 1am, the only person she saw in any close proximity to the gates was Goldstein at 12:56. Goldstein stated Tuesday night that he passed the gates at 12:55-56 via an Interpreter...hence...there is no need to present either witness at the Inquest. The time and story by both can be deemed valid.

The police do not have the obligation to provide 2 witnesses for the same time period if they match, if they do not, then they may put both statements on the record. Or not. That might explain why we only have Mr Browns sighting of 12:45 on Inquest records, although if they believed Brown did see Liz Stride ,then they must also have thought she received the flower arrangement after Browns sighting, or he missed seeing it. Neither seems realistic to me.

Cheers Observer

Hi Mike

I'd agree. Consequently it's entirely possible that Mortimer (should Schwartz's story be truthfull) was indoors during BS mans assault upon Liz Stride.

Regards

Observer

[DRoy]

Observer,

I once again have to steal from Lynn Cates...yes it is possible but so is alien abduction. Something of that sort. Something to do with aliens.

Just kidding

Yes it is possible. Just as possible as Schwartz protecting someone. Just as possible as Schwartz being misinterpreted. Just as possible as his interpreter was misinterpreted. Just as possible as the one recording the statement misinterpreted. And like the fantastic Faberge commercials with Heather Locklear back in the day..."and so on and so on..."

Cheers
DRoy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

As it pertains to this thread...

Did Liz die for it? No, at least she did not have it if she did die for it.

[DVV]

Consequently it's entirely possible that Mortimer (should Schwartz's story be truthfull) was indoors during BS mans assault upon Liz Stride.
Observer

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

It has been stated by a member here David, I believe Maria, that she has uncovered a link between Schwartz and Wess, which would make his story, which ultimately is likely designed to place the assault on Liz off the clubs property, thereby providing a potential alibi story for the club. As is Eagles. And Laves. And Diemshutz.

Anyone who believes that the club members wouldn't be desperate to have any suspicions regarding the murder lifted from their shoulders doesnt understand the clubs history, its reputation, and the fact that Immigrant Jews as a whole were not well received by the neighborhood. They were called Anarchists by the cops, and "Low Men", by the neighbors.

Fanny is just about the most important witness for what happens in front of the club between 12:35 and 1am, I dont think assuming she missed an altercation with 3 people involved moving about on cobblestones and a cry out is really the most pragmatic approach to assessing the data.

But then again, I dont need to shape the evidence to reinforce a belief that a Ripper killed her either.

Cheers David.

[DVV]

Hi Michael

Yes I know Maria worked on this.
Actually, what you call an altercation involving 3 persons happened in less than one minute, and Pipeman had probably nothing to do with it. Nobody was shouting loud, according to Schwartz.

All the best, amigo

[Observer]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

Mais oui mon ami. By the way, you in all likelyhood speak better English than I !

Regards

Observer

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael

Yes I know Maria worked on this.
Actually, what you call an altercation involving 3 persons happened in less than one minute, and Pipeman had probably nothing to do with it. Nobody was shouting loud, according to Schwartz.

All the best, amigo

The best to you as well David.

Then heres another problem....how come Spooner, or Brown, or the young couple Brown sees, dont see Israel run into the street they are on at the time... at 12:46...by your one minute speculation? Or Pipeman.

Its not only Fanny who "missed" seeing Israels storyline unfold.

And I checked my earlier post and it seems like I was suggesting Immigrant Jews as whole were referred to as "Anarchists", which of course was not my intention. I meant to suggest only the club and its members.

Cheers my friend

[Observer]

Observer,

I once again have to steal from Lynn Cates...yes it is possible but so is alien abduction. Something of that sort. Something to do with aliens.

Just kidding

Yes it is possible. Just as possible as Schwartz protecting someone. Just as possible as Schwartz being misinterpreted. Just as possible as his interpreter was misinterpreted. Just as possible as the one recording the statement misinterpreted. And like the fantastic Faberge commercials with Heather Locklear back in the day..."and so on and so on..."

Cheers
DRoy

I'd agree, but unfortunately it's something we'll never get to the bottom of

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Hi Obs, that's indeed very likely imo.
As for Schwartz protecting someone, that's a cranky idea to me.
If I need a witness to save my neck, I would choose one that can speak English properly (which btw isn't my case, aaarff, as everybody knows on boards).

All the best

But you still manage to make more sense than many who have mastered the language.

[Michael W Richards]

Heres a thought on a possibility for Schwartz....if he didnt understand English, then how would he know what the translator actually said to the investigators?

Lets say Israel was at the meeting, ....and when leaving via the kitchen door at around 12:45....since the front door was apparently locked at 12:40...he sees the altercation he describes happen, only IN the passageway. Where Liz is actually killed. When he tells the translator this.....(who is very likely Wolff Wess of the club and the editor of the Arbeter Fraint)....the translator simply embellishes the story in English and changes the location by a few yards.

Why? Because the translator stands to lose his business if anyone at the club is suspected. Whats a few yards going to matter to a dead woman.....when its everything to the club members.

If this premise were true....you would be able to place Liz at her murder site just before the cut time, you wouldnt have an altercation that ends in the street and then re-starts in the passageway, you could assume that Israel was used by the club for self protection even without his consent possibly, and you would have an opportunity created that I doubt any senior staff at 40 Berner Street would have been able to resist. Its also why Fanny doesnt hear or see it.

Cheers all

[lynn cates]

still looking

Hello Mike.

"uncovered a link between Schwartz and Wess"

Observation might be premature. I believe this is ongoing.

Of course, even if a link is found, he might still be telling the truth for all that.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

The best to you as well David.

Then heres another problem....how come Spooner, or Brown, or the young couple Brown sees, dont see Israel run into the street they are on at the time... at 12:46...by your one minute speculation? Or Pipeman.

Its not only Fanny who "missed" seeing Israels storyline unfold.

Cheers my friend

Spooner was nowhere near Berner Street during the Schwartz incident

As has been discussed on another thread by DRoy and moi, forget about precise time references by individual witnesses, they don't make any sense at all. We're taking very brief time spans, for each individual incident. There's room for manovure for all involved to be talling the truth. All execept Mr's M of course !

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

To Obs and Jon : many thanks for your kind posts my friends.

As for Schwartz covering a club member (which I don't believe for a second), I must add : why would a club member kill a woman near to the club ? That would be stupid.
And had it happened, why would the other members protect him ?
It makes no sense at all.

Remember that anarchists did have a moral code. Killing a poor woman like Liz would have been such a shame according to this code.

[The Good Michael]

Excuse me, but why is it news that Schwartz possibly had connections to Wess? We've been talking about this for years...at least 5 or 6, that Schwartz was probably a member of the Club. I remember even the idea that he had been living next door and was in the process of moving when the Stride Ripper murder happened.

What I'm saying is that it would have been normal for young Jewish men from eastern Europe who were all recent immigrants, to have belonged to the same organizations...if only for a sense of security. Nothing nefarious there, and no connection to Stride's death...unless one is suggesting a member killed her.

Mike