6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[Wickerman]

This is quite true.

Stride knew the area around Berner Street as well as any other in the East End. And lets face it, she didn't have far to walk from her base in Flower and Dean Street. It's half a mile to be precise, a seven minute walk. Non Ripper enthusiasts, who I've shown around the area, are surprised at how close the various locations are to each other.

Thats the most significant point I remember, how quickly I seemed to get from one murder site to the other (this was back in the early 70's), the street maps are extremely deceptive. The area looks vast but is really quite compact.

Regards, Jon S.

[Hunter]

This is quite true.

Stride knew the area around Berner Street as well as any other in the East End. And lets face it, she didn't have far to walk from her base in Flower and Dean Street. It's half a mile to be precise, a seven minute walk. Non Ripper enthusiasts, who I've shown around the area, are surprised at how close the various locations are to each other. I'm certainly not surprised Liz Stride was where she was when she met her untimely end, and neither would the people who knew her I'd suspect.

This subject was discussed at length some years ago if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, it has... and that was the reason for my mention of circular arguments in an earlier post. The Stride threads for the past several years contain much information about her antecedents. However, people are still going to believe what they want, despite incriminating evidence.

[lynn cates]

sleep

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Here's a quickie.

1. Why was Annie looking for 4d?

2. What had many people done in the passageway at #29 Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Here's a quickie.

1. Why was Annie looking for 4d?

2. What had many people done in the passageway at #29 Hanbury?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
I do actually understand your thinking. However, I think it is too quick to believe it was carved in concrete.

1. She left the lodging house looking for 4d for her bed. Since she was not found with 4d on her . . .

However, since she was not reported seen for several hours and we have reports of her being quite ill, I personally find it difficult to believe that she was able to remain on her feet and wander around until 5:30 a.m. I doubt that she was physically capable of that.

So, knowing she was weak, I suspect she went to a house she knew -- Remember there is something somewhere that quotes Mrs. Richardson as recognizing Annie Chapman as the little dark woman who used to come to the house selling crochet work and which Mrs. Richardson sometimes purchased out of pity.

Which leads directly to your question No.

2. The answer I suspect you want is that it was used by prostitutes and their clients. However, we also have testimony that people sometimes slipped into the hallway to sleep when they could not afford a bed.

When we combine the second usage with Chapman's known physical condition and the length of time from leaving the doss house to her body being found (and NO, I do not believe the 5:30 time -- another discussion all together) I personally believe it is just as likely Annie had gone to a familiar house to rest. A house she likely knew for both its usages.

This combination is why I suggest people not be too hasty in believing they know exactly what Chapman was doing in that hallway.

Velma

[Sluggo]

Thats the most significant point I remember, how quickly I seemed to get from one murder site to the other (this was back in the early 70's), the street maps are extremely deceptive. The area looks vast but is really quite compact.

Regards, Jon S.

I have noticed this. I am very visual in my understanding of things and when looking at the maps they do make Whitechapel look vast. It is extremely deceiving. Although, they have helped immensely in my research when trying to visualize the reading of each victom.

Debb C.

[lynn cates]

Not the Marriott, but . . .

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Actually, I was NOT looking for solicitation in the passageway. But you inadvertently (perhaps) gave the EXACT answer I sought. The passage was used for sleeping.

And yes, I suggest Annie was there for a default sleep. Best she could do.

And many others did the same. As you recall, a foreign sounding man was ejected some time before. He claimed he was waiting on the market to open.

To summarise, Polly and Annie are rather simple cases.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

The answer to the question youve been asking cd is yes, women were allowed in the club during meetings. Eagle escorting his ladyfriend home after the meeting is some evidence of that. Additionally, if someone was known at the club they might even have been able to wait inside. The problem with that line of thought is that the meeting at the club was over for over an hour when she arrived there, and only members, not guests, were inside.

To Rivkah, since the possibility I was referring to that night, Liz being there for some work, was taking place on Sunday morning in actuality, I had not intended to suggest Saturday work. But rather meeting an employer and staying at his home that night to serve and clean for his family on the Sunday. Or...she may have been hired to clean the club when the evenings event was finished....something that she knew wasnt the case yet as she could hear the singing from upstairs through the window.

Again, on the thread issue, we clearly have evidence that Liz has things on her in death that she did not leave the lodging house with. One is money...the other are things that can be purchased with money.

Ive said it before, if anyone can ascertain what the cost of a packet of cashous and a flower arrangement cost in that neighborhood at that time, we might well have this question answered.

The more important question has always been why was Liz where she was at 12:30, with cashous a flower and fern, and sober. The meeting had ended, most of the people had gone home and the only people left onsite were inside. No street traffic other than the young couple.

So....Soliciting is not a logical answer.

Cheers all

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Actually, I was NOT looking for solicitation in the passageway. But you inadvertently (perhaps) gave the EXACT answer I sought. The passage was used for sleeping.

And yes, I suggest Annie was there for a default sleep. Best she could do.

And many others did the same. As you recall, a foreign sounding man was ejected some time before. He claimed he was waiting on the market to open.

To summarise, Polly and Annie are rather simple cases.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
No not inadvertently.

I personally believe Annie Chapman was too sick to have been out wandering the streets and that she did go to Hanbury to rest.

I was under the impression that you believed Annie met your chap out front around 5:30 and that you accepted Mrs. Long's testimony.

Actually, we seem to seeing this the same -- up to a point.

Vela

[lynn cates]

Annie vs Liz

Hello Velma. Thanks.

When I believed in a solo killer, I asked how long Annie would solicit without giving in.

I think both Annie and Jacob had used the passage before for sleeping.

As I observed, this is easier to decipher than trying to account for Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Thats the most significant point I remember, how quickly I seemed to get from one murder site to the other (this was back in the early 70's), the street maps are extremely deceptive. The area looks vast but is really quite compact.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Wickerman

I likewise visited the area in the early 70's, but at that time had no interest in the murders. It wasn't until about 76 that I became interested in the murders, and of course by that time a lot of the sites had disappeared. My one big regret is a total lack of interest in photography back then, my heart bleeds at the thought of all those photo opportunities which went to waste. If only comes to mind.

Regards

Observer

[RivkahChaya]

So, pretty much "I'll earn my doss; see what a jolly bonnet I've got," from Polly Nichols makes her the only victim we really know was working as a prostitute that night. Since it seems to have been MJK's actual profession, it's a reasonable assumption, although, if she was as drunk as reports suggest, she may have been off-duty by the time she met up with her killer.

I realize that soliciting a prostitute has always been a convenient explanation for the fact JTR got the women off the streets and into the shadows, and it certainly has been the way other serial killers have found victims-- it seems to have been what Gary Ridgway did, and Aileen Wuornos found her victims by trolling for Johns. But I have always felt there was some judgment in the "they must have been soliciting" theory, not so much in an "immoral women deserved to die" way, as much as "of course, as prostitutes, they were incautious; it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been talking to strangers in the first place," sort of thing.

I don't think we can really know what happened. If they hadn't been sick, poor, drunk, and vulnerable, it wouldn't have happened to them, but then it probably would have happened to five (or, maybe four) other women, because nothing in any of their decisions to drink, go out alone, spend their doss money and have to earn it again, directly influenced JTR's decision to leave his home with a knife that same night.

[Michael W Richards]

So, pretty much "I'll earn my doss; see what a jolly bonnet I've got," from Polly Nichols makes her the only victim we really know was working as a prostitute that night. .

Hi Rivkah,

In fact we can be pretty sure that 2 Canonicals were soliciting at the time they meet their murderers, Polly AND Annie. Both claimed to be attempting to earn money on the streets to secure their doss for the night.

That is not clear with Liz, its not enough of an explanation for Kates behavior, and its not at all in the known and accepted evidence for Mary Kelly.

The claim that Jack the Ripper stalked the streets late at night looking for weak and susceptible prey, ......homeless prostitutes, strangers,.... to fulfill his dark desires has always fallen short of explaining why perhaps 3 of the Canonical Five were not within that group of women on those respective nights.

Had Liz told her landlady she needed to work that night, had Kate been heard to be negotiating a fee or closing a deal with her sailor man, and had Mary actually picked up someone off the streets after midnight, then I could see that hype.

But its pretty clear only 2 of the women were soliciting at the time.

Best regards

[GregBaron]

Snooze you lose...

I think both Annie and Jacob had used the passage before for sleeping.

I suppose Annie could have gotten in a good snooze before leaving when she ran into the mad butcher who then propositioned her. Getting a few coins early in the morning could be a good start on the day..

Or do you think, Lynn, that Annie and JI layed down for a group snuggle before later heading into the yard for a good ripping.........?


Greg

[lynn cates]

former

Hello Greg. Thanks.

The former is a sensible suggestion.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

But even if we assume for the sake of argument that only 2 of the victims were soliciting at the time, doesn't the evidence show that it is much more probable than not that all of the C5 engaged in prostitution at some point?

c.d.