6d. Did Liz spend it, or die for it?

[RivkahChaya]

Hi, Lynn,
I can see her buying the cachous for herself, but the flower . . . would she have purchased it for herself or was it more likely to have been a gift from a man?

I've never purchased a flower for myself to wear, but have purchased plenty of mints.

I have never, ever purchased cut flowers for myself, to wear, or to have in the house (annuals to plant, yes, but not cut flowers). I am more or less allergic to pretty much any angiosperm, though, and can't spend more then five minutes in a florists unless I take an antihistamine first, so I'm not likely too. I don't know any woman who buys flowers for herself, although I know some women who grow things like roses, and cut them to bring inside.

I can't speak as a Victorian, nor as anyone but an American, and a Northerner, for that matter-- Southerners seem much more into decorating with flowers, but then, they have much longer seasons for them, and they are probably cheaper. I can speak as a woman who often pays for my own things, even on dates, and I would never buy a flower. I've occasionally bought jewelry, boxed candy, or a drink in a bar (to name other atrociously expensive things with symbolic value) for myself, but never flowers.

Maybe that's just me, though.

I was repeating the 4d from Lynn. I have no idea what the going rate was other than what I read here.

What am I missing? Because it was the same as the doss rate?

ETA: "d" = pence, right?

[curious4]

Liz' s flower

Ladies were given "nosegays", small bouquets prettily tied up with ribbon. What Liz was wearing seems to me to be more what a man would wear, as they do at weddings nowadays. I have always pictured Liz's "escort", whoever he was, unpinning it from his coat/jacket and pinning it on to Liz's jacket, not buying it especially for her.

Regards,
C4

[RivkahChaya]

I have always pictured Liz's "escort", whoever he was, unpinning it from his coat/jacket and pinning it on to Liz's jacket, not buying it especially for her.

That seems perfectly reasonable, given that he probably didn't have a lot of money, but wanted to give her something personal. That seems to me, with the caveat that I have no instincts here, to be the opposite of what someone patronizing an alleyway prostitute would do. That seems to be a really impersonal experience. Unless there is some kind of Victorian code of coat flowers I know nothing about, where colors indicated shopping for certain things, and having empty lapels indicated you were available, and pinning was a way of inquiring about price, and also learning if you'd accidentally stumbled onto someone unfamiliar with the lingo, then I'd speculate that whoever gave her the flower wasn't a customer.

If you have been spending time with a boyfriend, fiance, husband, friend-with-benefits, or whatever terminology you want to come up with someone with whom one is close, and regularly affectionate with, and he gave you a display of affection, would you leave it on display when you went advertising for customers? I would think that advertising that one had some kind of partner, someone who was moved to pin his flower on you, however weak that might be compared to expensive jewelry, or a wedding ring, it would still tend to discourage business.

If we are pretty certain that the flower was given to her by a man with whom she had a personal relationship, then I think it's fair to speculate that she was not soliciting that particular night. This doesn't mean she never did, just that she wasn't that night.

[lynn cates]

Half a denarii?

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

""d" = pence, right?"

Yes. It's from the Latin, "denarius" = penny.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello (again) Rivkah.

"I think it's fair to speculate that she was not soliciting that particular night. This doesn't mean she never did, just that she wasn't that night."

My sentiments precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

""d" = pence, right?"

Yes. It's from the Latin, "denarius" = penny.

I used to collect coins, and Americans used to regard the dime (it used to be spelled "disme" from Old French for "tenth," even though it seems the "s" was silent) as a unit of currency. There was also a silver coin called a half-dime-- five-cent pieces weren't made out nickel until after the Civil War-- so I've seen lots of old documents where 2d. meant twenty cents, and so on. I have to consciously remind myself what it means in British terms. It's no so hard when I see "1s 2d," but when I see it by itself, I still think "dime" sometimes.

Once in high school, we were reading a book where the author called a coin a "5-cent nickel." Everyone thought that was redundant (because now in the US, a "nickel" doesn't mean anything but a 5-cent piece), and even the teacher couldn't explain it. I was the only one who knew that at the time, 5-cent nickels were new coins, and there were also 3-cent nickel coins in circulation.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

I believe there is a relationship between the charge of 4d and the cost of a single bed in a lodging house for one night,....which was 4d. They likely wanted to ensure at least a roof should they be driven to service other street people sexually.

Liz cleaned rooms that last afternoon for 6d, as mentioned. She also told the landlady who paid her and took her for a pint before she went out that she had been at work among the Jews. Charring work. She is found without alcohol in her system, without her 6d, but with 2 things we did not hear she left her lodgings with...the cashous and the maidenfern and flower. When coupled with her request to borrow a lint brush before leaving for the night, it seems on this night Liz was concerned about her overall appearance. As if she perhaps was going to be in the company of people above her own station in life....like a middle class Jewish family perhaps, on the eve of the High Holidays,..which it was.

I believe its likely Liz paid for the cashous and flower adornment herself, as part of her preparation.

Now.....we have her standing outside a Jewish Mens Club that had middle class Jews as members. Middle class being a relative term, of course. On the eve of the High Holidays, well dressed and appointed,...more than an hour after the meeting had ended.

Does it seem like she might be waiting for an employer? Either that or a male friend I would say. But almost certainly someone inside, since the club is the ONLY place on that street that had activity involving Jewish men at that hour. She is found dead on that property, not on the street, and we must conclude that its possible she entered that passageway by herself.

Seems to me we have a lot of circumstantial evidence that many people set aside for the phantom menace to suddenly appear, slice, and disappear.

When you want to see something specific you tend not to see other things. I only want to see what evidence there is for her soliciting or a robbery...and there is none of either.

Cheers all

[lynn cates]

equivocation

Hello Rivkah. Thanks.

Yes, the equivocation turns on metal vs value.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

quick ones

Hello Mike. Two quick ones.

1. Had not Yom Kippur already passed?

2. Middle class? Thought they were all poor labourers?

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

on the eve of the High Holidays,..which it was.

No, it wasn't. It was Sept. 30. Rosh Hashanah that year was Sept. 6, and so Yom Kippur was the 15th (more correctly, Sundown 14th to sundown 15th). By the 30th, everything was over, including Simchat Torah. However, it was erev Shabbes, which tells you that the people at the club were not very observant. They may not have been doing things that specifically constituted work (although, I'm pretty sure driving a horse cart qualified), but an observant person would either be at synagogue, or home with family.

Now, even not especially observant Jews generally observe the High Holy days, and had this been one of those, I'd be surprised the club was open.

Or, maybe the club was not wholly Jewish. Is it possible it was mixed? Or was it socialist, or something-- something where people might be making a point of being non-religious? People from different religious backgrounds might mix, and they be open Friday nights, Sunday mornings, and so on?

Anyway, as far as Stride working for a Jewish family on Friday, I suppose it's possible she had work as a Shabbes goy, which is to say, someone who lights and stokes fires for Jewish families so they don't freeze in the winter on Shabbes. They get paid in advance, so Jews don't have to worry about dealing with finances on Shabbes, in which case, she might have had quite a bit of money for the neighborhood she was in, which I guess could have made her a target. It would also give her a reason to be where she was, if she were picking up keys, or something, and late September is about the time a Shabbes goy would be needed, as far as needing fire for heat. That's all total speculation based on Michael W. saying she was working for a Jewish family, and her presence outside a Jewish club. It's no more valid than speculating that her regular partner may have killed her over her seeing someone on the side; I just bring it up, because I've never heard of her working for a Jewish family before, but maybe someone else has, and has more info, but wasn't aware of the employment of Shabbes goyim, and it may fit together.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks, Rivkah

As reported in real life in Rothschild Buildings by Jerry White, yes, a woman from the nearby lodging houses could be hired by a Jewish household to clean, char, etc. The Jewish woman of the house did the hiring and paying, not the man of the house.

Roy

[lynn cates]

Yom Kippur feast

Hello Rivkah.

"Now, even not especially observant Jews generally observe the High Holy days, and had this been one of those, I'd be surprised the club was open."

Slight correction. The club had offended the Orthodox Jewish community by holding a Yom Kippur feast. It was in the "Jewish Standard."

Cheers.
LC

[RivkahChaya]

Hello Rivkah.

"Now, even not especially observant Jews generally observe the High Holy days, and had this been one of those, I'd be surprised the club was open."

Slight correction. The club had offended the Orthodox Jewish community by holding a Yom Kippur feast. It was in the "Jewish Standard."

Cheers.
LC

A Yom Kippur feast, or a Yom Kippur "break-the-fast"? A break-the-fast is a tradition, which everyone observes, from the Haredi, to the Lubavitch, to Reform Jews many of whom fast, but many of whom consider it a choice, and for all I know, "Jews for Jesus," who are not even actually Jewish, for the most part, but keep kosher, and don't turn on lights on Shabbes.

But there are still many ways to offend Orthodox Jews with your break-the-fast. If your building is not within the eruv, but you carry your food there during Yom Kippur, if you cook it on Yom Kippur, or if it isn't strictly kosher, and you publicize it in such a way that people much think it is, then you are probably going to get the Orthodox community worked up, especially if it's a new immigrant neighborhood, and the Orthodox are, as far as they are concerned, just the Jews, and anyone else is breaking the law (any other Jews that is; Jews don't care what goyim do on Yom Kippur, as long as it doesn't interfere with them).

Do you have a copy of the article, or a cite? I really can't imagine anyone having a "Yom Kippur feast," unless it is deliberately to spit in the faces of the Orthodox. There are non-observant Jews who ignore Yom Kippur altogether, but I have never heard of Jews who make a point of observing the actual day of Yom Kippur (as opposed to the end of it, which is when the break-the-fast occurs), by turning it on its ear, and having a "feast."

For anyone who does not know, there is a fast on Yom Kippur, which is commanded by the Torah. Certain people, like people who are ill, or women who are breastfeeding, are exempt from it, and young children are specifically not allowed to fast, but it's in no way generally considered optional, and in my experience, it's often the last observance to go: in other words, people who don't keep kosher, don't go to shul on any other day of the year, and may even celebrate Christmas, still fast on Yom Kippur, so I'd be very surprised by a Yom Kippur feast.

[curious4]

Liz

As Liz was known to have spoken yiddish, I think it is fair to conclude that she was fairly conversant with jewish customs.

And, once again, it was not a jewish club but a socialist working men's club.

Cheers,
C4

[lynn cates]

Jewish Standard

Hello Rivkah. Thanks. Your wish is my command, effendi.

The AF people invited Jews to a dinner DURING the fast. And, yes, it was like spitting in their faces and deliberate.

(Relevant portion near end.)

Cheers.
LC