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  • One for Tom

    Just so:

    'MATTHEW JOHN THOMAS . I am a florist, of 2, Great Dover Street—that is the second shop round the corner from St. George's Church; on Wednesday morning, 12th October, about a quarter-past ten, two people came into my shop—the gentleman I recognise as Dr. Kirwain, and the girl they call Blanche—I had not known Dr. Kirwain before, but I recognise him from his photograph; I have seen Blanche outside to-day—I should think they had been recovering from drink, rather steadying themselves—the woman smelt very strongly of drink, and was very dilapidated—the gentleman seemed rather an aristocratic gentleman; she understood quite what she was doing; she came in first; she was wearing a fawn-coloured or drab three-quarter cloak and a broad felt hat with a dark-coloured bow in it, blue I think—she asked me to pin a flower in her jacket or cape, and I did so—it was a blue and white, I think—the gentleman was wearing a tall silk hat; I thought he was a professional gentleman—he seemed the most sober of the two, the other seemed skittish, larkish—the gentleman had on a dark overcoat, not buttoned; it was open, and underneath was a dark coat buttoned across, and he had a curb chain from one pocket to the other, tan coloured gloves, not on his hands, and an umbrella—I believe he was

    See original
    wearing a stone ring, if I remember right, but I would not be positive—it was gold, a kind of signet, on his left hand—the woman came in first, the gentleman was immediately behind her—she said she wanted a flower; he gave her one, a chrysanthemum—she would not have it, she wanted a rose; he said, "Let her have what she wants"—he paid for it—he pulled out from his trousers pocket a handful of money; I should think there was some loose silver, half-crowns and two-shilling pieces, and two or three gold coins, all mixed up with some coppers—he was quite sensible and understood, but seemed weary, and leaned on the counter; I watched him through a looking-glass, and he leaned back and looked tired; the shop is entirely glass—I did not turn my face to him; the woman smelt of drink very strongly—they were in the shop from five to ten minutes; the man was able to give me the right money, he quite knew what he was doing—I drew his attention to the gold at the time—they went out, and walked across the road in the direction of the church; I watched them.'

  • #2
    Thanks, AP. That was an interesting read, but what paper was it in? What year? Oct. 12th puts it after Stride was dead? Help me out a bit here as I'm not the interpretive genius that you are.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
      Thanks, AP. That was an interesting read, but what paper was it in? What year?
      It's from the Old Bailey records from 1892, Tom. The full account may be read via this link.

      Great Dover Street is in Southwark, by the way.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Sam Flynn.

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Thanks, Sam!

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting though ain't it, Tom, that such a 'gentleman' as this would pop into a little corner shop late at night to purchase flowers for the prostitute he has just picked up; and that the owner of the shop is able to give the police such an accurate description of the couple?
          I seem to remember you claiming that this sort of thing couldn't have happened in the case of Elizabeth Stride?

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, that's interesting, and no, I never claimed such a thing. She had to have gotten the flower somewhere and the most likely explanation is someone bought it for her. What I said didn't happen was the grape episode with Packer, because that didn't happen.

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott

            Comment


            • #7
              Funny that, Tom, for this is the second case of murder from the LVP where I have demonstrated conclusively that it was not at all unusual for a 'gent' to 'treat' his newly bought prostitute to some flowers, and then perhaps a bit of fruit. Certainly the first case I provided for you had the 'gent' buying his partner some fruit.
              In the latest case the 'gent' purchased only flowers and no fruit, but this is probably best explained by the shop being a florists where no fruit was available to purchase.
              Who knows, Tom, if black grapes had been available the couple may well have purchased them.

              Comment


              • #8
                AP,

                I don't believe anyone has ever suggested it was a rare thing for a man to buy woman flowers. Since they were found on Liz's person, they must have been acquired somewhere. None of this has anything to do with the price of tea in China or grapes as Packers. Open a window and let those fumes out, will ya.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott

                Comment


                • #9
                  'Somebody remind me never to start a thread like this again. In fact...'

                  Nah, only joking, Tom.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Cap'n Jack

                    Very interesting. And as Tom said someone bought Stride a buttonhole, if her killer bought those flowers and he was JTR then he dosn't fit the stereotype portrayed in the newspapers of the day does he? Quite the little charmer in fact. Come to think of it he dosn't fit the stereotype that has came down through the generations.

                    Observer

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Observer
                      quite right. I think the chap was just another client, his behaviour and actions seem to determine that; and it was common practise for clients to 'treat' their prostitute by giving them flowers, fruit, new bonnets and especially drink. In fact the common approach of a prostitute towards a client was to ask him if he was going to 'treat her to a drink'.
                      Well this chap had, hadn't he, and he was then just following the normal procedure by treating her to fruit and flowers... the next part of the routine was to get to the real business between them, but they were rudely interrupted by someone totally unconnected to the 'treats'.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Cap'n Jack

                        Prostitues and bar rooms.

                        In my opinion it's highly unlikely that Stride was a Ripper victim, so I don't know whether it's appropriate to discuss the following here in this thread but looking at the times and circumstances of the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly leads one to believe that little or no planning preceded the murders,

                        But I wonder if JTR had a working knowledge, for want of a better word, of the pub's and club's of the area, and used the tap room to acquaint himself with various prostitutes, thereby having an advantage when it came to gaining their trust?

                        Lets face it, If I am right in my assumption that Kelly picked up her killer from the street how was it possible for him to persuade Kelly to turn a trick, and in her own room to boot? We must also bear in mind that six of her fellow prostitutes had been brutally murdered in the preceding three months, and Kelly was known to be in fear of the Whitechapel fiend.

                        If this be the case how did he gain her trust?

                        Observer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Observer View Post
                          looking at the times and circumstances of the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly leads one to believe that little or no planning preceded the murders,

                          But I wonder if JTR had a working knowledge, for want of a better word, of the pub's and club's of the area, and used the tap room to acquaint himself with various prostitutes, thereby having an advantage when it came to gaining their trust?
                          Hello, Observer.

                          I certianly agree with your second point here: JTR might well have used the pubs to "help himself." But that in itself suggests some thinking ahead--and it might entail a lot of planning, if he chats them up and gets to know their turf, their weaknesses, . . .. So I was curious about your first point. What about the times and circumstances makes you feel that there isn't any planning?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Observer View Post
                            Hi Cap'n Jack

                            Prostitues and bar rooms.

                            In my opinion it's highly unlikely that Stride was a Ripper victim, so I don't know whether it's appropriate to discuss the following here in this thread but looking at the times and circumstances of the murders of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly leads one to believe that little or no planning preceded the murders,

                            But I wonder if JTR had a working knowledge, for want of a better word, of the pub's and club's of the area, and used the tap room to acquaint himself with various prostitutes, thereby having an advantage when it came to gaining their trust?

                            Lets face it, If I am right in my assumption that Kelly picked up her killer from the street how was it possible for him to persuade Kelly to turn a trick, and in her own room to boot? We must also bear in mind that six of her fellow prostitutes had been brutally murdered in the preceding three months, and Kelly was known to be in fear of the Whitechapel fiend.

                            If this be the case how did he gain her trust?

                            Observer
                            Hi Observer,

                            I don't think this is any great mystery. The victims were prostitutes. They needed money. Clients provided that money. So their options were somewhat limited. In the case of Kelly, Jack might have said that is cold out here, if you have a room, I would like to spend the night. I am willing to pay you well for that privilege. Money really wouldn't be an issue for him since he probably intended to take it back anyway.

                            Also. Jack probably didn't come across as particulary threatening so that it was business as usual.

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I am willing to pay you well for that privilege
                              He would need to have been a few classes above Mr. Joe Average in order to cough up for such a privilage though, CD, even if he intended to take it back afterwards. I doubt our man was so pecuniarily privilaged.

                              Cheers,
                              Ben

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