One for Tom

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Given the photos of Mary's room, I don't think we are talking about a great deal of money here.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Not a massive amount, but when you consider the number of clients she could potentially have got through during the course of a night (or even the remainder of it), she'd need a very strong incentive to forgo that in favour of battoning down the hatches for the night's duration with one bloke.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

But if clients were scarce and she didn't feel good and didn't feel like standing out in the cold and rain, she might have accepted that trade off.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

The pickings would have been on the slimmer side at that time of the morning and in those weather conditions, but if she was proactive and needed the money, I've no doubt she'd follow the example of Mary Cox and head in search of them. Unless, of course, the "trade-off" was large enough to justify her not bothering, but very few Eastenders would have had the means to offer it.

Regards,
Ben

[Observer]

Hi Paul

Hello, Observer.

I certianly agree with your second point here: JTR might well have used the pubs to "help himself." But that in itself suggests some thinking ahead--and it might entail a lot of planning, if he chats them up and gets to know their turf, their weaknesses, . . .. So I was curious about your first point. What about the times and circumstances makes you feel that there isn't any planning?

Nichols had been talking to a friend shortly before her death, she was alone, murdered in the early hours of the morning surely her death was a hit and run affair.

Chapman murdered as the sun was about to rise, again an opportunist at work.

Eddowes in custody 45 minutes before her death, not much chance to stalk Eddowes.

Kelly, again traceable shortly before her death, at home singing away in the early hours of the morning, chances her hand one time too many times and meets her opportunist killer on the streets of Spitalfields.

Just my take on matters of course.

Observer

[Observer]

Hi c.d.

Hi Observer,

I don't think this is any great mystery. The victims were prostitutes. They needed money. Clients provided that money. So their options were somewhat limited. In the case of Kelly, Jack might have said that is cold out here, if you have a room, I would like to spend the night. I am willing to pay you well for that privilege. Money really wouldn't be an issue for him since he probably intended to take it back anyway.

Also. Jack probably didn't come across as particulary threatening so that it was business as usual.

c.d.

I think you miss my point, I don't doubt that those poor women had no option but to go out onto the streets to earn a living, even with a serial killer on the loose, it's the old adage is't it, "it won't happen to me".

All I'm saying is their killer might have been known to them, not well known, rather a friendly soul they knew from one of the bars they'd drank in.


Eddowes in particular seems to have been familiar with her killer she halted at the entrance to Church Passage for some reason and was deep in converation with her killerhand on his breast as Lawende and company passed. And if Kelly was picked up from the street what prompted her to take such a risk if her killer was a stranger, the drink? I don't think so, it could well be she knew her killer, albeit on a nodding relationship.

I Could be a million miles from the truth of course.

Observer

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

Eddowes in custody 45 minutes before her death, not much chance to stalk Eddowes.

Not for a protracted period, but there would have been ample time with which to observe her and ponder her suitability as a victim before approaching her. There's no mutual exculsivity between stalking (either briefly or over several days) and opportunism. The whole point about about a murderous stalker is that he usually seeks the "opportune" moment to appoach the victim and strike, rather than ramdonly and unexpectedly bumping into a suitable victim and deciding on the spur of the moment "yep, she'll do". If Kelly, for example, didn't encounter her killer on the streets, but was intruded upon and murdered in her sleep, it wouldn't make her killer any less "opportunistic". In fact, he'd be more so.

That said, I accept your sensible suggestion that one or more of the victims could well have been on "nodding" terms with their killer.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi Observer,

I am still not sure that I am understanding your point. Prior to Mary, the other victims had been killed in the street so that was no guarantee of safety either. For all we know, Mary might have felt safer in her own room knowing that other people were about. And add in the incentive of more money which she needed to pay her rent.

c.d.

[Observer]

Hi Ben

Hi Observer,



Not for a protracted period, but there would have been ample time with which to observe her and ponder her suitability as a victim before approaching her.


Best regards,
Ben

Precisely, I agree. But it's highly unlikely that the killer was aware of Eddowes movements earlier, i.e. her arrest, her release etc. He could well have known her beat though, and have been on familar terms with her.

All the best

Observer

[paul emmett]

Hi Paul



Nichols had been talking to a friend shortly before her death, she was alone, murdered in the early hours of the morning surely her death was a hit and run affair.

Chapman murdered as the sun was about to rise, again an opportunist at work.

Eddowes in custody 45 minutes before her death, not much chance to stalk Eddowes.

Kelly, again traceable shortly before her death, at home singing away in the early hours of the morning, chances her hand one time too many times and meets her opportunist killer on the streets of Spitalfields.

Just my take on matters of course.

Observer

But what if it's more than what Ben calls a nodding acquaintance. What if they talked--or planned to meet? What if he bought them flowers and bonnets? I thought that your pub notion, getting to know them, might explain more than why they might have been more comfortable with him.

Why, for example, didn't Nichols go home with Mrs Holland that night? Why was Eddowes so concerned about the time? Where did Stride get that flower? I'm just suggesting that perhaps these fatal meetings weren't fortuitous; perhaps they were planned ahead of time.

"Don't fret, Mary Jane; I'll stop by around 2:00."

[Observer]

Hi c.d.

Hi Observer,

I am still not sure that I am understanding your point. Prior to Mary, the other victims had been killed in the street so that was no guarantee of safety either. For all we know, Mary might have felt safer in her own room knowing that other people were about. And add in the incentive of more money which she needed to pay her rent.

c.d.

But it's quite clear that all the victims lead the killer to their chosen out of the way venue. I would guess that the initial point of contact was a lot better lit wider thoroughfare. OK we'll guess at where the victims met their killer. Nichols? Whitechapel High Street/ Road. Chapman? Commercial Street? Eddowes? Aldgate? Kelly? Commercial Street? Stride? If a Ripper victim, Commercial Road?

The point is if they were suspicious of any client they had the chance to refuse to budge. Something allayed their fear, to allow them to take the man who would eventually murder them to a quit rendevouz.

Of course I could be talking a load of bull, and if truth be known those women were so desperate they couldn't give two hoots whom they went with.

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Paul

But what if it's more than what Ben calls a nodding acquaintance. What if they talked--or planned to meet? What if he bought them flowers and bonnets? I thought that your pub notion, getting to know them, might explain more than why they might have been more comfortable with him.

Why, for example, didn't Nichols go home with Mrs Holland that night? Why was Eddowes so concerned about the time? Where did Stride get that flower? I'm just suggesting that perhaps these fatal meetings weren't fortuitous; perhaps they were planned ahead of time.

"Don't fret, Mary Jane; I'll stop by around 2:00."

Nichols told Holland she'd made her doss a number times that day, and intended to make it again. Eddowes killer couldn't have anticipated her arrest at 9 p.m. I doubt whether a meeting was planned. Was Stride a Ripper victim?

all the best

Observer

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.



But it's quite clear that all the victims lead the killer to their chosen out of the way venue. I would guess that the initial point of contact was a lot better lit wider thoroughfare. OK we'll guess at where the victims met their killer. Nichols? Whitechapel High Street/ Road. Chapman? Commercial Street? Eddowes? Aldgate? Kelly? Commercial Street? Stride? If a Ripper victim, Commercial Road?

The point is if they were suspicious of any client they had the chance to refuse to budge. Something allayed their fear, to allow them to take the man who would eventually murder them to a quit rendevouz.

Of course I could be talking a load of bull, and if truth be known those women were so desperate they couldn't give two hoots whom they went with.

Observer

Hi Observer,

We can't eliminate the possibility that it was Mary who suggested going back to her room. From a mathematical perspective, the more customers she had the greater the possiblity would be that one of them was the Ripper. If he seemed harmless enough and didn't balk at her price, why not go back to her room and get in out of the cold and rain? It is also quite possible that there had been a steady decline in customers, men not wanting to be a Ripper victim or who did not want to be stopped and questioned by the police. Going back to her room might have seemed the best strategy,

c.d.

[paul emmett]

But it's quite clear that all the victims lead the killer to their chosen out of the way venue.

Hi, Observer.

I know that this is clear to most folks here, but I've never bought into it completely. What's the evidence? That 29 was Annie's bed# and murder site? That's kinda why I responded to your original post. If JTR had met his victims earlier, if they knew him, they would be more likely to go to the spots he selected. And I think it would behoove Jack to choose.

As far as a prearranged meetings, Polly did say she would make her doss money again, but it was 2:30 in the morning, and Holland was offering her a sure thing. Why not take it unless she had more than a hunch that money was acoming? And, yes, Eddowes's killer couldn't have anticipated her arrest, but that doesn't imply that plans couldn't have been made. And that in turn would explain why Eddowes was concerned about the time, and why some back then thought that she was indeed meeting someone.

As far as Stride, yes I do think that she was a Ripper victim. Isn't that where this thread began? Stride and her flower.

[jason_c]

Hi Observer,

I am still not sure that I am understanding your point. Prior to Mary, the other victims had been killed in the street so that was no guarantee of safety either. For all we know, Mary might have felt safer in her own room knowing that other people were about. And add in the incentive of more money which she needed to pay her rent.

c.d.

Even during the height of the 1888 terror I suggest prostitutes were just as concerned at being caught for soliciting by the police as they were of being killed at the hands of the ripper. Using a room makes sense when hiding from the police.