Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Joshua Rogan]

Brown saw the couple after he'd stayed at the Chandler's shop for a couple of minutes. So he saw them on his way back home.

Yes. And it is interesting that he didn't mention seeing them there on his way to the shop. Suggesting that they only arrived there in the few minutes while he was buying his supper.

[FrankO]

Yes. And it is interesting that he didn't mention seeing them there on his way to the shop. Suggesting that they only arrived there in the few minutes while he was buying his supper.

Good observation, Joshua!

[caz]

It appears to be ok to ask “how come she heard the horse and cart at 1.00 and yet she didn’t hear the Schwartz incident?”

But not to ask “how come she heard a horse and cart at 1.00 but not at 12.35?”

Indeed, Herlock.

If the argument is that the Schwartz incident around 12.45 never happened because Fanny would surely have seen or heard something of it, then the same goes for this:

Witness Three - Abraham Hoschberg

“It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway two or three people had collected,”

The fact is, Fanny saw and heard no signs of any such commotion going on that early, and neither did Goldstein when she saw him pass by. All the reliable evidence points to the alarm being raised promptly on the pony and cart's arrival, around 1am, the sounds of which alerted Fanny and caused her to open up again to see what the commotion was all about.

The witness was simply out on his estimated time by - ooh - 'about' fifteen minutes, 'I should think', because, by his own admission, he had not looked at a clock to note the time.

Love,

Caz
X

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Frank,

I appreciate the comments/corrections.

.........

On Brown, I was going by his Inquest statement where he said:

“At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.”

So he appears to be saying that he’d seen the couple on the way to the Chandler’s shop?

..........

I went by the Wiki entry for Eagle for this one:

“he quickly ran to find a police officer, heading north up Berner Street onto Commercial Road, shouting for help at the top of his voice. At the corner with Grove Street he met PC's Henry Lamband Edward Collins who accompanied him back to Dutfield's Yard.”

Lamb did say PC 426 though - do we have a name for him Frank?

.......

Do we know the circumstances of Collins arrival?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes. And it is interesting that he didn't mention seeing them there on his way to the shop. Suggesting that they only arrived there in the few minutes while he was buying his supper.

Hi Joshua,

I don’t understand this. From the Inquest statement Brown is saying that he saw the couple on his way to the Chandler’s shop.

”At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.”

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua,

I don’t understand this. From the Inquest statement Brown is saying that he saw the couple on his way to the Chandler’s shop.

”At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.”

Is that from the Times? This does seem to be the outlier, missing out the mention of being in the shop for a few minutes, and seeing them on his return, which most other papers report;

Daily News 6 Oct
James Brown, 35 Fairclough street, a box maker, said - I have seen the deceased in the mortuary. On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street. I was in the shop a few minutes and then went home. As I crossed the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board school in Fairclough street. I was in the road just by the kerb and they were up against the wall. I heard the woman say, "Not tonight, some other night." This made me look round at them.

Daily Telegraph 6 Oct
James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.

The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.



Morning Advertiser 6 Oct
James Brown deposed - I am a box-maker, and I live at 35, Fairclough-street. On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street. As I passed them in the road I heard the woman say, "No, not tonight; some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them.

Star 6 Oct
JAMES BROWN,
of 35, Fairclough-street, said that at about a quarter to one on Sunday morning he went out to get some supper at the corner of Berner-street, where there is a chandler's shop. He was gone three or four minutes, and as he returned he saw a man and woman standing by the Board School (which is just opposite the scene of the murder). They were up against the wall. As witness went past them he heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made him turn round and look at them.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Do we know the circumstances of Collins arrival?

Yes. Albert had been standing outside the Beehive Tavern, talking to Ed Spooner, and was dressed in drag (for the purpose of catching Jack, of course).
When Louis and Issacs came running back from Grove street, he gave his lantern to Ed, who then hastened to Berner street with the other two (being caught up to by Mr Harris, on the way).
Albert then ducked into Queen's Court, where he had his regular police attire stashed, and quickly got changed. He too then hastened to Berner street, while rubbing off his lipstick.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes. Albert had been standing outside the Beehive Tavern, talking to Ed Spooner, and was dressed in drag (for the purpose of catching Jack, of course).
When Louis and Issacs came running back from Grove street, he gave his lantern to Ed, who then hastened to Berner street with the other two (being caught up to by Mr Harris, on the way).
Albert then ducked into Queen's Court, where he had his regular police attire stashed, and quickly got changed. He too then hastened to Berner street, while rubbing off his lipstick.

I asked a reasonable question because, unlike you, I don’t think that I know everything.

......

You gleefully thought that you’d somehow caught me out earlier. I pointed out your error. It’s noticeable that yet again you are unwilling to admit it. Why is this (as it’s not the first time that this as happened?) I’d suggest two reason, 1) you appear to be loathe to accept disagreement which you seem to take personally for some reason. And 2) it seems to me that you treat the subject as a kind of ego trip. An “I know more than you” or “I can quote you more than you” scenario.

Just because you feel that you’ve made a point it doesn’t follow that everyone will agree with you. As I’ve disagreed with you a fair few times in recent months you’ve decided to take this personally. Now you appear to spend your time sticking pins into a little Herlock doll.

Your ‘admiral (sic) humility’ comment I find surprising. Obviously you feel that I’m arrogant. What’s annoying is that no matter how many times I say things they systematically get ignored. I don’t know how many times I’ve said that most posters probably have a more detailed and up to date knowledge of the case than I do (due to me losing interest in the case for some time) So this makes me some kind of know-all? I also don’t know how many times I’ve stressed caution; stressed about being wary of stating opinion as fact; stressed caution about making assumptions. You yourself once called me boring for being so cautious. I’ve even been cautious on whether Stride was a victim or not and yet I’ve even been accused of trying to make her fit as a victim!? How does this weigh against the arrogant, know-all which you appear to think I am? How can I be more reasonable than I try to be. That said I’m not going stop commenting on things if I disagree. I’ve proved recently that I’m more than willing to be shown where I’m mistaken. I admit that I can be sarcastic but that’s hardly the greatest crime is it?

If you want to continue this back and forth sniping there’s nothing I can do about it. Or we can just discus the case?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is that from the Times? This does seem to be the outlier, missing out the mention of being in the shop for a few minutes, and seeing them on his return, which most other papers report;

Daily News 6 Oct
James Brown, 35 Fairclough street, a box maker, said - I have seen the deceased in the mortuary. On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street. I was in the shop a few minutes and then went home. As I crossed the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board school in Fairclough street. I was in the road just by the kerb and they were up against the wall. I heard the woman say, "Not tonight, some other night." This made me look round at them.

Daily Telegraph 6 Oct
James Brown: I live in Fairclough-street, and am a dock labourer. I have seen the body in the mortuary. I did not know deceased, but I saw her about a quarter to one on Sunday morning last.

The Coroner: Where were you? - I was going from my house to the chandler's shop at the corner of the Berner-street and Fairclough-street, to get some supper. I stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home, when I saw a man and woman standing at the corner of the Board School. I was in the road just by the kerb, and they were near the wall.



Morning Advertiser 6 Oct
James Brown deposed - I am a box-maker, and I live at 35, Fairclough-street. On Sunday morning last, about 12.45, I went from my own home to get something for supper at the corner of Berner-street, and was in the shop three or four minutes and then went back home. As I was going home I saw a man and woman standing against the wall by the board school in Fairclough-street. As I passed them in the road I heard the woman say, "No, not tonight; some other night." That made me turn round, and I looked at them.

Star 6 Oct
JAMES BROWN,
of 35, Fairclough-street, said that at about a quarter to one on Sunday morning he went out to get some supper at the corner of Berner-street, where there is a chandler's shop. He was gone three or four minutes, and as he returned he saw a man and woman standing by the Board School (which is just opposite the scene of the murder). They were up against the wall. As witness went past them he heard the woman say, "No, not to-night, some other night." That made him turn round and look at them.

Thanks Joshua. Yes I was using the Sourcebook so it was The Times.

[FrankO]

On Brown, I was going by his Inquest statement where he said:

“At that time I was going from my own house to get some supper from a chandler’s shop at the corner of Berner-street and Fairclough-street. As I was going across the road I saw a man and woman standing by the Board School in Fairclough-street.”

So he appears to be saying that he’d seen the couple on the way to the Chandler’s shop?

I see Joshua has already addressed the point, so thanks for that, Joshua.

Lamb did say PC 426 though - do we have a name for him Frank?

Unfortunately we haven't, Michael. Or, at least, I don't.

Do we know the circumstances of Collins arrival?

Not really. We know that Lamb at a certain point whistled for assistance and we know that when Smith arrived, he saw Lamb and Collins. PC 426 H was about to re-arrive at that point with Johnson. Collins may have been the PC that James Brown spoke of in his statement. Daily Telegraph of 6 October:
"When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street."

All the best,
Frank

[Herlock Sholmes]

I see Joshua has already addressed the point, so thanks for that, Joshua.

Unfortunately we haven't, Michael. Or, at least, I don't.

Not really. We know that Lamb at a certain point whistled for assistance and we know that when Smith arrived, he saw Lamb and Collins. PC 426 H was about to re-arrive at that point with Johnson. Collins may have been the PC that James Brown spoke of in his statement. Daily Telegraph of 6 October:
"When I heard screams I opened my window, but could not see anybody. The cries were of moving people going in the direction of Grove-street. Shortly afterwards I saw a policeman standing at the corner of Christian- street, and a man called him to Berner-street."

All the best,
Frank

Cheers Frank. I was going to ask about the PC that Brown saw. As you say, this could well have been Collins.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps I just can’t take your constant leaps of faith seriously?

How to turn a gang member into a whistleblower; offer a reward.
Simple psychology. No leap of faith required.

Speaking of gangs...

Lipski, Kosminski, Cohen, Kaminsky, and Leather Apron, are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.

I think they were a gang, who committed the whitechapel murders.

The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

How to turn a gang member into a whistleblower; offer a reward.
Simple psychology. No leap of faith required.

Speaking of gangs...

The leap of faith is when you try and deduce that the WVC wanted a reward offered because they believed that the killer was part of a gang and that one member might break ranks. In the quote it mentioned the killer having a ‘pal.’ Did the WVC ever state that they had suspicions that the killer was part of a gang? I’m asking the question? They might have done but I can’t recall reading about it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The leap of faith is when you try and deduce that the WVC wanted a reward offered because they believed that the killer was part of a gang and that one member might break ranks. In the quote it mentioned the killer having a ‘pal.’ Did the WVC ever state that they had suspicions that the killer was part of a gang? I’m asking the question? They might have done but I can’t recall reading about it.

DT, Oct 3:

A member of the Vigilance Committee informed our representative last night that a great deal of information about the state of the streets, and suspicious men who frequent them, had been collected by them, and they believed that at least some of it might turn out of value. Although many people think differently, he and some of his colleagues consider that the murders were not the work of one man, or, at all events, that he had associates. Their belief is that at least four or five men were engaged in the murderous plot, and it was in the hope of inducing one of them to turn informer that the committee were so anxious that the Home Secretary should offer a reward. This opinion, however, was formed when what is now known as the "medical requirement" hypothesis gained credence. Several members of the committee even thought they were on the track of the gang, but investigations have neither substantiated the theory nor led to the unravelling of the mystery. Nevertheless, the Vigilance Committee, under the presidency of Mr. George Lusk, continues to meet daily, and focus, as it were, the sentiments of the inhabitants.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

DN, Oct 3:

Mr. W. Wess, Secretary of the International Working Men's Club, Berner-street, called at our office at midnight and made the following statement:-It having come to my knowledge that the man who was seen by Mrs. Mortimer, of 36, Berner-street, passing her house "carrying a black shiny bag," who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road about the time the murder was supposed to have occurred, was a member of the club, I immediately went with him, between 10 and 11 to-night, to the Leman-street Police-station, where he made a statement as to his whereabouts on Saturday evening which was completely satisfactory.

According to who, and about what time was the murder supposed to have occurred?