Sequence of comings & goings - Stride

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just like Charles Cross and Robert Paul, he didn't, Herlock.

Then I’d say this was likely to have been the reporter misinterpreting the meaning of the words of a man with poor English Frank.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The Scotsman, 1 October 1888
Lewis Diemshitz, steward of the International Working Men's Club, and the finder of the body, says -
I am a traveller by trade, and go to different markets to sell my goods. Yesterday (Saturday) I went to Westow Hill. As the night was so wet I did not stay quite as late as usual. On driving into the yard my pony shied a little in consequence of my cart coming in contact with something on the ground. On looking down I saw the ground was not level, so I took the butt end of my whip and touched what appeared to me in the dark to be a heap of dirt lately placed there - a thing I was not accustomed to see. Not being able to move it I struck a match, and found it was a woman. First of all I thought it was my wife, but I found her inside the club enjoying herself. I said to some of the members, "There is a woman lying in the yard, and I think she is drunk." Young Isaacs, a tailor machinist, went to the door and struck a match, and, to our horror, we saw blood trickling down the gutter, almost from the gate to the club. I and Isaacs ran out for a policeman, but could not find one after traversing several streets; but in the meantime another man from the club, Eagle, ran to the Leman Street Police Station and fetched two policemen, who arrived about seven minutes after the discovery. I discovered the body about one o'clock.

Times, 19 March 1889
At the Thames Police-court, before Mr. Saunders, LOUIS DIEMSHITZ [Diemschutz], an unlicensed hawker, of 40, Berner-street, St. George's; SAMUEL FRIEDMAN, cap blocker, of 81, Weaver-street, Spitalfields, and ISAAC KOZEBRODSKE, a machinist, of 40, Old Ford-road, Bethnal-green, were charged with being disorderly persons, and concerned together in assaulting Israel Sunshine, Isaac Solomons, Emanuel Snapper, and Emanuel Jacobs, of Berner-street, St. George's. They were further charged with assaulting Constables James Frost, 154 H, and George Harris, 269 H, while in the execution of their duty. They were also charged with assaulting Julius Barnett. Inspector A. Thresher, H Division, watched the case for the Commissioners of Police. The disturbance arose out of the demonstration by the Jewish unemployed, which was organized by 15 Socialists on Saturday last. Israel Sunshine, 119, Wentworth-dwellings, Whitechapel, said between 2 and 3 o'clock on Saturday afternoon he was walking down Berner-street. He saw some boys and girls knocking at the doors of the Socialist Club. Suddenly some 20 or 30 men, armed with sticks, rushed out of the club, and attacked everyone indiscriminately. Friedman, said "I will do for someone to-night, and do not care if I get 12 months for it." Witness was then struck in the mouth, and about the body. Neither of the prisoners struck him. Julius Barnett said on Saturday afternoon he went down Berner-street. A number of Socialists rushed out of the club and attacked everyone. Friedman struck witness with a stick. Emanuel Snapper, 5, Sheridan-street, deposed Friedman was the ringleader of the Socialists. Witness was struck about the body. He saw Diemshitz strike the people. The disturbance arose through the Socialists marching to the great synagogue. Witness saw the police officers pulled into the Socialists' Club, and when there they were assaulted. Constable Frost said after the Socialist meeting a crowd of 200 or 300 persons got outside the Socialists' Club in Berner-street. Witness saw Diemshitz and Friedman come out with their coats off, followed by about 30 other persons. A free fight then began, through the Socialists attacking the people outside. Witness told Diemshitz he was a police officer, and tried to stop him from striking one of the witnesses, but the prisoner took no notice of him. Diemshitz afterwards made a savage kick at witness, who fell backwards, and the blow caught him on the leg. Witness caught hold of him, but he was pulled away. Witness was then dragged into the passage of the club, where he was assaulted by a number of men and women. During the struggle the prisoner Kozebrodske struck him a blow on the head with a broom handle. In trying to get out of the place he was again assaulted. Witness felt t
he effects of the assaults very much. He denied striking Diemshitz first. Constable Harris gave further evidence, and Mr Saunders at this stage remanded the prisoners until Wednesday, and agreed to accept bail for their appearances.

Times, 26 April 1889
Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons. A third man, Samuel Friedman, who was indicted with the defendants did not surrender to his bail when called. Mr. Gill and Mr. Partridge prosecuted on behalf of the Commissioner of Police; and Mr. W. M. Thompson represented the defendants. The alleged disturbance occurred on March 16, on which day there had been a procession of the Jewish unemployed in the East-end. After the dispersal of the procession, many of those composing it returned to the International Workmen's Club, Berner-street, Commercial-road, E., of which they were members, and from which the procession had started. A crowd of some 200 or 300 persons, who had been following the procession, assembled outside the club, and began to annoy those inside by throwing stones, hooting, and knocking at the door. The defendant Diemschitz, steward of the club, sent for the police, but when they arrived those inside the club assumed the defensive, and, rushing out in a body, attacked the crowd with broom sticks, walking sticks, and umbrellas. It was stated that the defendants bore a prominent part in the fight, and that Diemschitz struck and kicked plain clothes constable Frost, who interfered. Frost attempted to arrest Diemschitz, but was dragged into the club, where he was beaten and kicked. On the conclusion of the case for the prosecution, Mr. Gill abandoned the count for riot. A number of witnesses were called for the defence, who gave evidence to the effect that the police had made an entirely unprovoked attack on the defendants and their companions. The jury found the defendants Guilty of assaulting two constables, but Acquitted them on the other counts. The Chairman said they had greatly aggravated their offence by the defence they had set up. Diemschitz was sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour, and on his liberation to be bound over and to find sureties to keep the peace for 12 months. Kosebrodski was sentenced to pay a fine of £4, or to be imprisoned for one month.

More evidence supporting that Kozebrodski and Isaacs were one and the same person...

So Diemschutz describes Isaacs as a young, Tailor/Machinist and Isaac Kozebrodski is 19 and a machinist.

There can be no doubt that they were one and the same Frank

[Wickerman]

More evidence supporting that Kozebrodski and Isaacs were one and the same person...

Excellent Frank, thankyou......and perhaps I can say a thankyou from Michael on his behalf.

[FrankO]

Then I’d say this was likely to have been the reporter misinterpreting the meaning of the words of a man with poor English Frank.

That's certainly a possibility, Herlock. I would just say that Kozebrodski didn't state he was sent out 'alone', nor that he was actually 'alone' while searching. He just didn't say if there was anybody with him or not. If, however, Kozebrodski is supposed to be one of the Jews who was seen by Spooner, then I'd say Kozebrodski wasn't alone.

[FrankO]

So Diemschutz describes Isaacs as a young, Tailor/Machinist and Isaac Kozebrodski is 19 and a machinist.

There can be no doubt that they were one and the same Frank

If we put it together with the newspaper snippets saying that Kozebrodski was commonly known as Isaacs, very little doubt, if any, remains for me. But it wouldn't surprise me if some would still say this means nothing, Herlock.

[FrankO]

Excellent Frank, thankyou......and perhaps I can say a thankyou from Michael on his behalf.

You're welcome, Jon. And if Michael wants to thank me, too, I'll be here...
If not, that's all the same... to everyone his own.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Can you point out where he says he was sent out alone, or is this just your interpretation of his statement?

My interpretation of the event, is that they ran a few seconds or more apart, rather than side by side

[Herlock Sholmes]

My interpretation of the event, is that they ran a few seconds or more apart, rather than side by side

What a surprise. They pretty obviously left together in the same direction and so unless Diemschutz decided to give Kozebrodski a head start for some reason....

[Wickerman]

The picture now presented, of two men running along Fairclough St. gives credence to an obscure press report which has often been attributed to the scene where Schwartz was running away with Pipeman in pursuit.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.
Echo, 1 Oct. 1888.

As we learn from other sources, the Secretary was William Wess, and if modern theorists are correct, Wess is believed to have been the interpreter called on by Schwartz to give evidence to police.

However, if this press report does indeed describe Schwartz fleeing "incontinently" away from the scene, then how is it that Wess does not claim to know the identity of the man being pursued? If William Wess was the interpreter then he would know the man running ahead was (a) not the murderer, and (b) was merely his client Israel Schwartz running away from the scene.

So, either Wess was not the interpreter used by Schwartz, or Schwartz (& Pipeman) were not the two men seen running along Fairclough St. towards Grove.

Contrary to the above mentioned theory, I believe the press report is a distorted record of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman along Fairclough St. as concluded in this thread.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

… I believe the press report is a distorted record of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman along Fairclough St. …

… a few seconds or more apart.

[Herlock Sholmes]

… a few seconds or more apart.

Thats not what is says or even implies. It doesn’t mention the distance between them. This could mean two men running in the same direction but one just behind the other by a matter of two or three yards which led to an observer thinking that it was a chase.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The picture now presented, of two men running along Fairclough St. gives credence to an obscure press report which has often been attributed to the scene where Schwartz was running away with Pipeman in pursuit.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.
Echo, 1 Oct. 1888.

As we learn from other sources, the Secretary was William Wess, and if modern theorists are correct, Wess is believed to have been the interpreter called on by Schwartz to give evidence to police.

However, if this press report does indeed describe Schwartz fleeing "incontinently" away from the scene, then how is it that Wess does not claim to know the identity of the man being pursued? If William Wess was the interpreter then he would know the man running ahead was (a) not the murderer, and (b) was merely his client Israel Schwartz running away from the scene.

So, either Wess was not the interpreter used by Schwartz, or Schwartz (& Pipeman) were not the two men seen running along Fairclough St. towards Grove.

Contrary to the above mentioned theory, I believe the press report is a distorted record of Diemschitz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman along Fairclough St. as concluded in this thread.

Hi Wick,

To be honest this reads to me as if Wess had been told about this incident by the man giving chase and that the chaser was known to Wess but not very well as he couldn’t remember his name? Might this mean that West knew the identification of Pipeman? The problem is of course that there was no mention of a chase in the Schwartz story.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thats not what is says or even implies. It doesn’t mention the distance between them. This could mean two men running in the same direction but one just behind the other by a matter of two or three yards which led to an observer thinking that it was a chase.

I didn't give a distance, although you did.
The point however, is that one man runs ahead of the other, by two or three yards, or two or three seconds - take your pick.
The essence of the matter is that this was misconstrued as one man chasing another - like Pipeman supposedly chasing Schwartz.
You might also note the time the event described in the Echo was said to have occurred - about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I didn't give a distance, although you did.
The point however, is that one man runs ahead of the other, by two or three yards, or two or three seconds - take your pick.
The essence of the matter is that this was misconstrued as one man chasing another - like Pipeman supposedly chasing Schwartz.
You might also note the time the event described in the Echo was said to have occurred - about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning.

The only reason I mentioned distance was that ‘a few seconds or more’ would equate to a sizeable distance between them (20 or 30 yards or more perhaps)

Could be that someone just conflated to two events. Schwartz/Pipeman at 12.45 and Diemschutz/Kozebrodski just after.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The only reason I mentioned distance was that ‘a few seconds or more’ would equate to a sizeable distance between them (20 or 30 yards or more perhaps)

In the confusion, Kozebrodsky was possibly sent out to look for police by Diemschitz (or someone with authority in the club hierarchy), and when Louis finished giving instructions to someone(s) else, he runs in the direction that Isaacs took. Who knows what the distance apart could be at that stage, but apparently it was perceived as being far enough that it seemed as if one man was chasing the other, but not far enough that it seemed like separate events.

Could be that someone just conflated to two events. Schwartz/Pipeman at 12.45 and Diemschutz/Kozebrodski just after.

Only if all the related times and/or order of events work out, and of course Louis has to arrive home before he can start running anywhere.
That's the difficult part, of course. An easier question; how many chases up Fairclough street did Ed Spooner witness?