Diemschutz arrival

[Jon Guy]

Hello again Lynn

Thought experiment time. By chance, I was reading about the Brown murder in Westminster just today. As you must know, she died by having her throat cut about 2 hours before Liz and only 3 miles away.

Although her mentally disturbed husband readily confessed, suppose he had not.

I submit to you that we would have threads discussing the thesis that "Jack" killed Mrs. Brown, but was interrupted before mutilation began. Next, he went to Berner street and did for Liz. ANOTHER interruption. By now, he was in a frenzy and found Kate at Mitre Square. Success!

And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame.

I doubt that there would be any threads discussing whether Mrs Brown was killed by the Ripper.
She was killed in the front parlour of her house miles away from the East End.
Even if her husband had not had a nervous breakdown and confessed, everyone in the street heard the argument that was taking place in the house.
But, if Mrs Brown had been from a common lodging house in Flower and Dean street and was just visiting Regents Gardens that night ..then maybe ..

[Jon Guy]

Hello Lynn

Being seen in company with a man is hardly proof of soliciting.

Ah, so what evidence is their that Chapman was soliciting?

[lynn cates]

I Robot.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I doubt that there would be any threads discussing whether Mrs Brown was killed by the Ripper.
She was killed in the front parlour of her house miles away from the East End."

Must Jack ALWAYS behave the same way? He's not a robot is he? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

hawking

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so what evidence is there that Chapman was soliciting?"

Her statement when she left. And at that time of night, she wasn't likely hawking needle work.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

There is no clear connection to the area with regards Maybrick! I think you should do some more research there, Phil.

If Phil starts researching Maybrick I'll thump him on the head!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Proof vs evidence of solicitation

Lynn,

Stride had a history of prostitution, a friend of hers said she was actively prostituting (start reading my stuff as I read yours!), and on the night she died she was seen standing, with a man, in front of no less than three drinking establishments. This is strong evidence of solicitation. Strong enough to allow us to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was soliciting. Now, this is not PROOF, nor does it allow us to concluded beyond ALL doubt that she was soliciting, so I'll give you that. But to look at the same evidence and say 'she was not soliciting' would be akin to seeing a known crack addict standing in front of three crack houses on the same day with a pipe in his hand, and concluding 'based on the evidence, I'd say this boy is clean as a whistle.'

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

Tom,
Wouldn't it be more along the lines of saying that someone was seen in a restaurant that had lost a huge amount of weight, so they must be back to gaining weight again? Without direct proof, it seems a bit much to stick every male that she meets as a customer. Between the darkness, location to the party, amount of probable time with body, and amount of sightings with men that evening, if anyone was going to have proof of working it should have been Stride. Unless it is either going to be said that a killer wanted her money more than to do other things to the body, or she is a victim of another hand that had money on the mind, I am not so sure that proof doesn't float the other way with Stride. She very well may have been, but would keep that aspect in the 50/50 club more than one way or the other.

[lynn cates]

thoughts

Hello Tom. Thanks. I indeed read your work.

As you know, I have reservations about the reports of Liz that night. No problem with PC Smith, though.

Her history? Well, I doubt Liz was a virgin. (heh-heh) The question, in my eyes, is, "Was she soliciting that night?"

At any rate, if I had to pick one for solicitation, it would be Liz over Kate--hands down.

Cheers.
LC

[miakaal4]

Have just checked a couple of books, and apart from a handkerchief, Stride doesn't seem to have had any possessions at all!? Would she spend money on fresh breath if she was that skint?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Miakaal

You need to check the evidence regarding the room she shared with Kidney...and perhaps with special regard to when/where she relocated her most precious possessions...

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello Mac. Thanks.

I agree that Polly and Annie were prostituting when killed. I'd like some evidence for the others.

It seems to me that, given one faulty assumption, more must follow. Soon, the case is unrecognisable.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

How do we know that Polly and Annie were prostituting when killed? Aren't you really saying that the evidence that we have tends to indicate that? Not trying to be smart ass here but it seems as if you are using a different standard as to whether Liz was doing that as well.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Mac. Thought experiment time. By chance, I was reading about the Brown murder in Westminster just today. As you must know, she died by having her throat cut about 2 hours before Liz and only 3 miles away.

Although her mentally disturbed husband readily confessed, suppose he had not.

I submit to you that we would have threads discussing the thesis that "Jack" killed Mrs. Brown, but was interrupted before mutilation began. Next, he went to Berner street and did for Liz. ANOTHER interruption. By now, he was in a frenzy and found Kate at Mitre Square. Success!

And I PROMISE you, someone would be counting the 3 miles from Westminster to Berner and demonstrating the plausibility of the 1-2 hour time frame.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I think the relevant point here is that there was a connection to her husband. If we had all of the facts regarding other murders at this time, I think that the vast majority of them would have some obvious motive, i.e., robbery, jealousy etc. as opposed to someone just running around Whitechapel sticking a knife in people for no good reason. That is why I believe Liz was a victim of Jack. I don't see a motive in her killing that points to anyone being her killer other than Jack.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Lynn,

Stride had a history of prostitution, a friend of hers said she was actively prostituting (start reading my stuff as I read yours!), and on the night she died she was seen standing, with a man, in front of no less than three drinking establishments. This is strong evidence of solicitation. Strong enough to allow us to conclude, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was soliciting. Now, this is not PROOF, nor does it allow us to concluded beyond ALL doubt that she was soliciting, so I'll give you that. But to look at the same evidence and say 'she was not soliciting' would be akin to seeing a known crack addict standing in front of three crack houses on the same day with a pipe in his hand, and concluding 'based on the evidence, I'd say this boy is clean as a whistle.'

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

Only Israel Schwartz says that Liz was seen talking to a man after 12:35, Brown is almost certainly mistaken as to whom he saw, so there is only the Inquest absentee to rest your "solicitation" assumptions upon Tom. She was seen talking to a few men throughout the evening, and seen slipping away to dark corners with none of them.

As to the suggestion of an interruption, perhaps you misunderstand, that Diemshutz's story opens the possibility... or that Abberline said thats what he thought, means that an interruption is a valid conjecture, is nonsense. There is no physical evidence within the known realm that suggests or intimates that an interruption happened. None. It doesnt matter who thought it out loud, its unsupported by all the physical evidence. She was killed. Period.

If you believe that you possess some information pertaining specifically to the physical evidence and the presence of data that suggests an interruption, that isnt generally known, then I suppose you might have had a point when you made your remarks to me.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I haven't talked to you in a long time. Hope you are doing well.

As for evidence of an interruption, you are quite right, there is none. That would require Liz on her back with her dress pulled up and a cut to her abdomen but no organs removed. But we also have to ask ourselves could an interruption have occurred without any evidence? Is that possible? Is it a reasonable assumption? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. If her killer was in fact Jack and given the circumstances under which he was operating, is it so unlikely that he might have been scared off prior to Diemschutz arriving? If that happened, what possible evidence would we have of that?

c.d.

[Hunter]

There is ample evidence that Liz Stride was employed as a charwoman/maid/nanny after having spent a few years prostituting to support herself while still in Sweden, there is also evidence that she helped run a coffee shop, that she acted as a maid for a relation of a policeman and that she had told close friends she had "been at work among the Jews" recently. She cleaned rooms and was paid for it on Saturday afternoon, no-one knows what happened to the money, but it was enough for a bed if she had chosen to spend it thusly.

All of these women (with the possible exception of Kelly) had a history of doing menial work from time to time... but not usually between 12 and 6 a.m.

No, we don't know with any certainty why Elizabeth Stride was outside of 40 Berner St. at that hour. But unlike many other uncertainties there are a multitude of contemporaneous clues as to why she was there. The police thought she was soliciting. Dr. Blackwell referenced her 'class' by the way she was dressed. Thomas Bates mentions what she did when she had to; the lady from Tiger Bay, also. She had a record at Thames Magistrate Court for the previous 3 years that included being arrested for soliciting. She was probably the only one of the so-called canonicals to actually have been arrested for soliciting... Not to mention reportedly being seen with several different men in the space of little more than an hour.

Of course, this has been debated ad nauseum over the recent years and I would not be redundant here, except for the fact that some new members may not be aware of certain facts. No one's going to change the minds of agenda driven Ripperologists.