The Second man,height 5ft 11ins had a clay pipe

[miss marple]

Teeth are the key. A 25 year old woman, who had lost a lot of teeth, bad health, plus bad diet and overwork could easily look 'elderly' George Orwell writing in the thirties commented on how old the working class looked in, Road To Wigan Pier and the conditions he was writing about, although bad were not as bad as the east end in 1888.
The ripper victims did apparently look younger than their age, but they they had not started out in the east end or in the direst poverty, such as working as sweated labour since childhood.Some victims like Chapman, Stride and Kelly had a good standard of living before they fetched up in the east end. They had most of their teeth were comparatively healthy ,and did not work in factories or sweatshops.
Miss Marple

[Roy Corduroy]

Tom said:

here's the attendance list for the IWEC that night:

Israel Schwartz
Michael Kidney
Wilf Gregg
Melvin Harris (smoking pipe)
Andy Aliffe (foul mood, slightly tipsy)
Jack the Ripper
Unnamed man bearing torso
Dr. Twomblety
O.J. Simpson

Heard there was singing that night. Did Ginger Baker provide the drumming? Resolving the age question and the matter of Cream's double in one fell swoop.

Roy

[celee]

It continues to puzzle me that this taller man,standing on the opposite side of Berner Street, actually gave chase to Schwartz.The smaller man who was attacking Stride apparently looked up and shouted "Lipski" and just after this this the taller man gave chase---- Schwartz claims he stopped before the railway bridge.
At first glance,this looks as though these two men are working together.They are both outside the Berner Street Club,one on one side the other standing lighting his pipe on the opposite side, one atttacking a woman who was soliciting,while shouting over to the other who then chases off a passer by .
Two men working together?

Hi,

I feel if Tumblety was involved in the murders, he very well may have had an acomplise. I wonder who?

Your friend, Brad

[caz]

Hi All,

Reviving this thread just to say that maybe Schwartz had Pipe Man chasing him away from the scene because he felt he needed an excuse for not getting involved.

It doesn't sound too manly to go to the cops with an account of seeing a woman being roughed up by a man who may have been about to cut her throat, and just walking on by without lifting a finger to help her.

I'm not saying Pipe Man was an invention (isn't there some suggestion that he was later identified?), but he may not have been threatening either. Both witnesses could easily have underestimated the danger Liz was in from BS man, and just not been too keen to hang around, in much the same way that Levy was disconcerted a bit later on near Mitre Square, to see 'characters' like the man and woman assumed to be the killer engaging with his next victim (albeit in a rather friendlier manner).

I'm reluctant to discount Schwartz's account entirely, because if he was seeking attention and really wanted to soup it all up while excusing himself for not getting involved, he could have had BS man threatening him directly with a knife, instead of Pipe Man.

Love,

Caz
X

[nicole]

Hi all,

Ben says,

Pipeman may well have been another "witness" who didn't fancy tangling with surly, burly Broadshoulders any more than Schwartz did, and fled the scene accordingly.

That doesn't sem to be the case. Apparently, the IWEC's secretary knew who Pipeman was but (quite conveniently) forgot his name when asked.

From The Echo 1st Oct 1888

In the course of conversation the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, the man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body.

This casts some suspicion on Schwartz and his testimony as the pursuit must undoubtably have been the Pipeman/Schwartz one and there is no mention of the BroadShoulders character.

sincerely
Nicole

[The Rookie Detective]

Ooops !! Sorry, damned memory.

According to Begg :

Louis Hagens, the Nelson. 26 Berner St.
At the junction of Berner St and Fairclough St.
Listed as a Beer Retailer, meaning it was not a pub, and according to a juryman at the Stride inquest, was "closed about nine o`clock".

So, unless Mt Hagens was operating after hours, Pipeman was standing in his doorway, and not leaving the premises when seen by Schwartz.

Although, a seemingly innocent action in stepping into a doorway to light a pipe,his position could also be seen as a vantage point for a look out.

46 Berner Street and Beerhouses closed by 10pm.

Whatever Pipe man was doing, he at least hadn't come out of the beer house, as it had been closed for nearly 3 hours, possibly longer.


interesting how Pipeman was only noticed by Schwartz after the assault on Stride.

This would suggest that Pipeman had indeed been standing under a doorway and IF he wasn't an accomplice, was likely unseen by BS Man also.

There's also a scenario whereby Lave was Pipeman.

[Lewis C]

46 Berner Street and Beerhouses closed by 10pm.

Whatever Pipe man was doing, he at least hadn't come out of the beer house, as it had been closed for nearly 3 hours, possibly longer.


interesting how Pipeman was only noticed by Schwartz after the assault on Stride.

This would suggest that Pipeman had indeed been standing under a doorway and IF he wasn't an accomplice, was likely unseen by BS Man also.

There's also a scenario whereby Lave was Pipeman.

Hi RD,

Maybe that can be explained by Schwartz facing in a different direction after the assault.

[DJA]

In fact Packer closed at 10 or 15 minutes after midnight,noting the time as the public house had closed.