The Second man,height 5ft 11ins had a clay pipe

[Natalie Severn]

Yes Tom but you have forgotten Dame Edna!

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom did NOT say he changed his story. I said he may have. It may also have been the interpeter, the reporter, the copysetter, or any combination of the above. But the most likely would have to be Schwartz and (depending on who it was) his interpreter. The reporter would have had no motive to stretch the truth in this case because he already had a sensational story to work with.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Seriously meant though c.d.
We really do not know yet whether Tumblety had a role to play in any of these murders-I am inclined to think he did-and so this tall man sounds interesting.
Cheers
Natalie

Hi Natalie,

Your post inspired me to start a new thread as to whether Tumblety's boat could have been intercepted.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

Pity Tumblety is a all-round misfit for the pipe-smoker, though, Nats. The height might have been similar, but nothing else matches, and old Tumbles certainly wasn't 35 in 1888.

No but he lived so well that by comparison with all the poverty stricken East Enders he probably did look twenty years younger Ben!

[Tom_Wescott]

No but he lived so well that by comparison with all the poverty stricken East Enders he probably did look twenty years younger Ben!

That's not a bad point.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Ben]

20 years younger?

I honestly think that's pushing it, Nats. I'm pretty sure most 35-year-old East Enders didn't look mid-fifties! Schwartz himself wasn't exactly an impoverished scruff, it might be borne in mind.

[Natalie Severn]

re Albert Bachert"s conversation on 29 Sept as reported in The Times Oct 2 188......

seen at "Three Nuns Hotel" Aldgate":
an "elderly" and shabbily dressed woman came in and moved from customer to customer trying to sell matches.The man [with the shiny black bag]standing next to Bachert asked how "old" some of the women were who were in the habit of soliciting outside.Bachert guessed they were from " 25 to over 35"......
Now the question was clearly asked apropos of the woman Bachert has just been asked about and who he describes as "elderly".Clearly an "elderly" looking woman such as the one just seen selling matches,and women looking similar who were soliciting in the East End in 1888, could be aged anything between 25 and over 35 [note he didnt say over 40].
I think that gives some idea of the toll such an experience of the East End often took on physical appearences of the people living hand to mouth there.
Tumblety lived like a lord and had loads of money,though he would have been a fool to flaunt it in the streets of the East End.So when he went into the East end ,he probably "dressed down" but still looked well and hearty.
Best
Natalie

[Jon Guy]

We don't have a diagram of Berner Street, do we? In my mind, I always see the Pipe Man standing outside a beer shop on the west side of the street, i.e., the same side as BS and the IWEC, and then crossing the street to chase Schwartz. Was there a beer shop on the east side of Berner Street? I thought that there was only a school between the point opposite the IWEC and the corner of Fairclough Street.

From memory,according to Begg,it was Hagen`s Beershop, 36 Berner St, same side of the street as the Club.

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

I'd be inclined to take anything Bachert says with a hefty pinch of salt. He was only "guessing" after all. Clearly a 25-year-old woman can never look "elderly".

he probably "dressed down" but still looked well and hearty.

...and 56!

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

I'd be inclined to take anything Bachert says with a hefty pinch of salt. He was only "guessing" after all. Clearly a 25-year-old woman can never look "elderly".



...and 56!



Ben

Your comment about Bachert"s estimate would be ok if he was saying anything different from Dickens ,Jack London or Booth.....sadly he wasnt.So it might be worth your while reading one of these writers to see what they had to say of the effects of poverty on the poorest sections of society in the East End.
Jack Nicholson ,now 70,and still filming, passed for a man aged thirty five-forty when he was filmed in his mid fifties.There are other examples of the well heeled looking less than their chronological age such as JF Kennedy
Best
Natalie

[Ben]

Jack Nicholson ,now 70,and still filming, passed for a man aged thirty five-forty when he was filmed in his mid fifties.

That's cinema, Nats, with all its make-up facilities for ageing and de-ageing actors. Not really comparable. As for Dickens, London and Booth, I feel quite certain that none of them have ever mistaken 25-year-olds for elderly women, even in deepest darkest Spitalfields.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

That's cinema, Nats, with all its make-up facilities for ageing and de-ageing actors. Not really comparable. As for Dickens, London and Booth, I feel quite certain that none of them have ever mistaken 25-year-olds for elderly women, even in deepest darkest Spitalfields.

All the best,
Ben

Thats totally untrue with regard to 25 year olds.Even from my own experience,when I was twenty I was introduced to a woman of twenty four who had had four children in four years.In her case just the effect of those endless sleepless nights, causing her eyes,to be heavily ringed with dark circles and her face pale and pasty, caused me and my friends to put her at about forty.
Imagine being homeless in the East End with four kids to feed and the only way to make sure you had enough to eat was to go on the game....

On the other hand,numbers of men who have lived well,can look twenty years younger by comparison.JFK was only one such.......when he took office as President most people thought he was 28 or so-----he was over 45 in fact.
Natalie

[Jon Guy]

From memory,according to Begg,it was Hagen`s Beershop, 36 Berner St, same side of the street as the Club.

Ooops !! Sorry, damned memory.

According to Begg :

Louis Hagens, the Nelson. 26 Berner St.
At the junction of Berner St and Fairclough St.
Listed as a Beer Retailer, meaning it was not a pub, and according to a juryman at the Stride inquest, was "closed about nine o`clock".

So, unless Mt Hagens was operating after hours, Pipeman was standing in his doorway, and not leaving the premises when seen by Schwartz.

Although, a seemingly innocent action in stepping into a doorway to light a pipe,his position could also be seen as a vantage point for a look out.

[Ben]

Imagine being homeless in the East End with four kids to feed and the only way to make sure you had enough to eat was to go on the game....

Yes, and as a consequence of which, you might look a bit older, but a woman in her early to mid-twenties is never going to have an elderly appearance (40 isn't elderly). It isn't necessarily true that people who "live well" will sudden appear 20 years younger. On the contrary, an obvious consequence of living too well is early rinkles and general paunchiness, which can have an ageing effect. I've no doubt whatsoever that fleshy florid-complexioned, elaborate-moustachioed Tumblety looked at least his age.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hello Natalie and Ben

I may be missing the point, but didn`t Liz Stride appear a good ten years younger than she actually was ? Possibly, Mary Nichols looked younger too ?