Stride Bruising

[mariab]

I have already done studies on this scenario. In fact, we all have. Just throw a loose bill and some change into a deep pocket and quickly dig in for the change. Your hand will meet the bill on the way down and it will become lodged between your thumb and forefinger as you grab for the change at the bottom.

I've conducted "studies" in similar fashion when I'm going surfing (lol), as there's invariably a piece of wax and some coins attached to my bills when going to the beach. (Which invariably makes me exclaim "I'm sooo rich! There's money in my wax.")

But according to the casebook victims' archive, in the pocket of Stride's underskirt were found:
A key (as of a padlock)
A small piece of lead pencil
Six large and one small button
A comb
A broken piece of comb
A metal spoon
A hook (as from a dress)
A piece of muslin
One or two small pieces of paper
Are you suggesting that the assailant only asked her to empty some of her pockets? Victorian men would have been wise about Victorian womens' (under)garments and the possibility of underskirts pockets etc..

On the other side, I completely agree with Chapman's ring intendations signaling a robbery pre-mortem. With Eddowes possibly too, since his hands would have been bloody for a search in her pockets postmortem, and some items in her pockets were apparently found blood-free. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the Ripper used the exact same MO on every single victim. He would have been able to adapt to situations. It might very well be that Stride was nibbling on cachous when her assailant approached her.

PS.: Cris, do you have details/a press report on that case where there was a struggle and the body was still holding items in her hands postmortem?

[Hunter]

The cashous are ridiculously over analyzed,...

That point, we agree on, Mike. There was another murder a few years later where a woman's throat was cut. Witnesses even heard a struggle in this case. She was found holding items in her hand.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

The cashous were clenched in her hand, and her scarf was twisted "tightly". Seems to me the clenching is likely self explanatory. As for the bruising, being poked roughly in the upper chest while her back was to the wall may be an answer.

She pushes the man back, heads for the gate....and the scarf is grabbed from behind. He pulls her off balance backwards, she falls toward her left side, twisting the scarf, and he runs the blade across her throat as this happens, or as she lay there.

The cashous are ridiculously over analyzed,... why did any woman or man use these items in Victorian London? Well, almost no-one brushed their teeth and fresh breath was important when talking closely with someone, while facing them. Facing someone while talking does not sound like conventional LVP Prostitution to me personally. And I can think of no other prostitute in these stories that either had on them or stated they used flowers and breath mints to attract filthy warehouse and dock workers.

But then again I can also discard the grapes evidence as well since I have no suspect that story relies on.

Best regards all,

Mike R

[lynn cates]

dislodging

Hello Tom. Yes, I've read the study; and no, the cachous were not in the palm.

If the coin/s and the cachous were ALL between thumb and forefinger, how could he dislodge one but not the other?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

waiting

Hello C4. No, I am like everyone else--awaiting further investigation.

But I cannot help but feel she was waiting for someone.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn. The cachous were wrapped in tissue paper, as you might remember. I have already done studies on this scenario. In fact, we all have. Just throw a loose bill and some change into a deep pocket and quickly dig in for the change. Your hand will meet the bill on the way down and it will become lodged between your thumb and forefinger as you grab for the change at the bottom. Keep in mind, the cachous was NOT in the palm of her hand...it was between her thumb and forefinger. The devil's in the details.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Hello C4.

"I think we have to answer the question as to why Liz was waiting outside the club . . . "

Agreed. Then, I think, it will all fall into place.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You have the answer? I don't have the monopoly on this, any other suggestions gratefully received....

Regards,
C4

[lynn cates]

why?

Hello C4.

"I think we have to answer the question as to why Liz was waiting outside the club . . . "

Agreed. Then, I think, it will all fall into place.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

expenditures

Hello Addy. Possibly. And possibly the flower.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Geraniums and cachous

Hello Wickerman,

Apologies for not directing my last to you directly - was in a rush to go out.

This from Dickens` Martin Chuzzlewick, chapter 48: "..and Ruth had fastened a sprig of geranium in Tom`s buttonhole....".

I think we have to answer the question as to why Liz was waiting outaide the club, and I don't think she was soliciting - not with the place full of wives and girlfriends. She wasn't desperate for money - she had the piece of velvet to sell if she had been, even if she had spent/lost her sixpence, possible on the cachous to freshen her breath. To my mind there are two explanations: one: Jack had left her there and told her to wait - possibly to visit the loos in the yard, could have hidden his knife there earlier, and two; whoever had been treating her all evening was an accomplice, ("someone not directly involved in the murder.."), who was to keep her happy and available and put her where Jack had planned to do his killing if her wanted to implicate the Jews. I believe I remember seeing on a map of Mitre Square that there was a large synagogue somewhere behind the square, so perhaps he hadn't given upp the idea altogether.

I see Liz meeting her end happily waiting for her "friend" and chomping on cachous.

Disprove me if you can,
C4

[Addy]

on, among other things, cachous?

Greetings,

Addy

[Bridewell]

She had no money on her when found, though she should have had some.

She'd started out with sixpence. What reason is there to be sure that she hadn't spent it during the course of the evening?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

The Mud

Her back would have been plastered with mud....

Regards, Jon S.

Indeed. Apologies for not working that one out myself, Jon.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello (again) Tom. From my point of view:

1. Liz met her assailant at the side door of the club.

2. They began to walk out to the gates and towards the street.

3. Liz paused for one of the cachous--much as one pauses momentarily for a cigarette.

4. The assault occurs.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

robbery

Hello Tom. Very well. Let's talk briefly of robbery.

I suppose that, in this scenario, the assailant takes Liz into the yard, just west of the open gates, and has her stand against the building for a "transaction." So far, so good.

Now he puts the tip of his knife into her back and explains that, if she screams, she's dead. Assume further that she does not panic and scream involuntarily. I think I can live with that.

Next, she is ordered to give him her money. Assume she has still the 6d from work.

3 scenarios:

1. Cachous and change both in left pocket.

2. Cachous and change both in right pocket.

3. Cachous and change in alternate pockets.

Two is quite awkward and would require a transfer from hand to hand.

Three seems to preclude her left hand going inside that pocket at all, as surely the assailant had no use for cachous. So let's try one.

She reaches into her left pocket and draws out both change and cachous. Just then there is some movement to the throat and her hand clenches. Next she is lain gently down, throat cut, etc.

I think that my problems are:

1. To have the change in the clenched palm whilst the cachous is between thumb and forefinger.

2. To have her assailant prise open her hand to extract the change and yet leave the thumb and forefinger together and holding the cachous tightly.

I wonder if something like this could be reproduced? It might provide a convenient study aid.

Cheers.
LC