Stride Bruising

[ukranianphil]

Apologies i was reading your post in the wee small hours.

[Wickerman]

But the hands were not clenched though, according to Blackwell. Her right hand was open across her chest. Her left hand was only partially closed.

Although the scarf had been pulled tight there is no indication it was as a result of choking, it could just as easily have been from the killer pulling on the scarf to restrain her as described by Blackwell.
"....the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way."

Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?

.

[lynn cates]

major change

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway."

Yes. Of course, if some cachous were spilled before that time, it would precipitate a huge change in my opinion of the case.

"Clenched hands = sign of strangulation."

Better:

Clenched hands = movement/pressure to throat.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Cachous

Hello Phil. Thanks.

I am with you on the scarf and cachous. But it seems that, once he lets go and does the shoulders, the cachous would spill.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway.

Clenched hands = sign of strangulation.

Best wishes,
C4

[Wickerman]

I dont think Dr. phillips was saying Liz was lying on her right side wickerman. I think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

No, thats not what I'm referring to.
Dr Phillips is explaining how he thinks she acquired the bruises, by pressure on both shoulders from the front.
He says she was placed on the ground by someone pushing her down using both shoulders. This suggests she is being pushed down on her back, that is what I am pointing out.
And yes, the perpetrator was likely by her right side.

.

[lynn cates]

shouldering the burden

Hello Phil. Thanks.

I am with you on the scarf and cachous. But it seems that, once he lets go and does the shoulders, the cachous would spill.

Cheers.
LC

[ukranianphil]

wickerman said:
*Even the Great Dr. Phillips can't always be correct.
We know that the left side of Stride's body was in contact with the ground from witnesses, and the physical evidence of this is that mud was found on her left side.
No mud was noted on her back, Phillips appears to have missed that, so no, on the strength of the missing mud, she was not placed down with her back to the floor.*

IU don't think Dr. Phillips was saying that Liz was on her right side wickerman
If you read his quote, i think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

[ukranianphil]

I dont think Dr. phillips was saying Liz was lying on her right side wickerman. I think he was saying the perpetrator was on her right side.

Welcome Phil, from the Ukraine


Even the Great Dr. Phillips can't always be correct.
We know that the left side of Stride's body was in contact with the ground from witnesses, and the physical evidence of this is that mud was found on her left side.
No mud was noted on her back, Phillips appears to have missed that, so no, on the strength of the missing mud, she was not placed down with her back to the floor.



I'm not convinced she was either, but I have withdrawn from previously feeling sure she wasn't to only not being convinced she was.
I'm firmly in the middle, and I still enjoy reading the opinions of both sides.

What might sway me is if we could establish that she had been strangled or choked first. This I believe was the true Ripper technique. I mean something more than a tight fitting scarf.

.

It's those little inconsistencies wickerman, that makes this so fascinating.
I think she was strangled with the scarf. But not the hands, and again i think that is one of the points i think she was not a ripper victim.
Fredrick Blackwell said at her inquest that it was dark, and it was only by the aid of a policeman's light, he examined the body. He said "There was no blood on the clothes, never mentioned mud.

[ukranianphil]

Hello Phil. Welcome to the boards. Good first post.

Why do you think that Liz clenched her fingers on the cachous? A movement towards the neck?

Cheers.
LC

I really don't know, lynn cates, i try and stick to the known facts, you could be right. (will have to look at my notes)
but i think that the killer grabbed liz scarf and as she was chocking, she was forced backwards(there was a knot in the scarf) so liz must have raised her hand to try and get the scarf off, the killer Grabbed her by the shoulders placed her on the ground, and that is when the killer cut her throat, when she was being chocked by the scarf, i believe her fingers tightened round the cachous, then.
Mr.Blackwell said "he could not form an opinion as to when the throat was cut,wither it was when she was pulled back, or on the ground," I think it was when she was kneeling on the ground, the killer took the knife out and slit her throat, just as her right hand was lowering, that's why it was covered with blood.

i am no expert, and i know i could well be proven wrong,

[lynn cates]

in the clench

Hello Phil. Welcome to the boards. Good first post.

Why do you think that Liz clenched her fingers on the cachous? A movement towards the neck?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Welcome Phil, from the Ukraine

My first post.

According to the Inquest, Dr. Phillips said:
"i have come to the conclusion that the deceased was seized by the shoulders, PLACED on the ground, and the perpetrator was on her right side when he inflicted the cut"

Even the Great Dr. Phillips can't always be correct.
We know that the left side of Stride's body was in contact with the ground from witnesses, and the physical evidence of this is that mud was found on her left side.
No mud was noted on her back, Phillips appears to have missed that, so no, on the strength of the missing mud, she was not placed down with her back to the floor.

It is partly this that i believe that Liz stride was NOT a ripper victim.
Phew. My first post.

I'm not convinced she was either, but I have withdrawn from previously feeling sure she wasn't to only not being convinced she was.
I'm firmly in the middle, and I still enjoy reading the opinions of both sides.

What might sway me is if we could establish that she had been strangled or choked first. This I believe was the true Ripper technique. I mean something more than a tight fitting scarf.

.

[ukranianphil]

ukranianphil,

I wish you nothing but the best. I just ask that you please don't say it was Sickert or Van Gogh!

Cheers
DRoy

Bugger!! back to the drawing board.

No my stride suspect was a local man, and knew the area well.
Never been put forward before, so a lot of research is required as i said.

[DRoy]

ukranianphil,

I wish you nothing but the best. I just ask that you please don't say it was Sickert or Van Gogh!

Cheers
DRoy

[ukranianphil]

ukranianphil,

Welcome to the boards Phil!

Bold first post by the way. Saying Liz isn't a Ripper victim can be a scary thing yet you did it in your first post.

Cheers
DRoy

many thanks for the welcome Droy.
I have been studying Liz stride for the past five years, and i have a working Theory and a "suspect", but a lot more research is required, hence my venture onto the boards.

[DRoy]

ukranianphil,

Welcome to the boards Phil!

Bold first post by the way. Saying Liz isn't a Ripper victim can be a scary thing yet you did it in your first post.

Cheers
DRoy