Stride Bruising

[curious4]

Strangle

Hello Lynn,

No, not at all - the Thugees were quite good at it by all accounts. And she was choked.

Cheers,
Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

abortive attempt

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"I think he/she grabbed the scarf with a purpose in mind - to choke a la Thugee, not just to pull her over."

So, an abortive attempt?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

So that's it!

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Who placed those damn cachous in her hand, and why?"

Cute.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Grabbing

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

Often the case in my experience. No, I think he/she grabbed the scarf with a purpose in mind - to choke a la Thugee, not just to pull her over.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[curious4]

Bonnet

Hair pulling might make her scream, pulling a scarf tight might gag any vocal response.
What was her hair style that night, was it long enough to grasp?
Was her scarf used as a head scarf?, covering her hair?
She was wearing a bonnet wasn't she?

Are you struggling to accept he might have pulled her down by the scarf?
It was pulled tight according to Blackwell, how do you think it got that way?
Have you read the inquest?
.

Hello Wickerman,

You are quite right, forgot the bonnet. Yes, read the inquest report several times. My point was that an abusive man will often grab a woman by the hair. I don't think this was a domestic incident. I do think she was choked first, as Jack was prone to do, and that he was interrupted, just as was thought at the time. If she was choked, she would have collapsed, no need to pull her over. Doesn't explain the bruises though, unless he grabbed her by the shoulders as she was falling, to place her in the right position.

Must learn to express myself more clearly and not multi-task when posting.

Best wishes,
C4

[Wickerman]

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

Who placed those damn cachous in her hand, and why?

.

[Wickerman]

Back again!

If he/she wanted to pull Liz off balance, why not grab her by the hair? This would have put her throat in a good position for cutting as well.

Best wishes,
C4

Hair pulling might make her scream, pulling a scarf tight might gag any vocal response.
What was her hair style that night, was it long enough to grasp?
Was her scarf used as a head scarf?, covering her hair?
She was wearing a bonnet wasn't she?

Are you struggling to accept he might have pulled her down by the scarf?
It was pulled tight according to Blackwell, how do you think it got that way?
Have you read the inquest?
.

[lynn cates]

by accident or design

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

What about grabbing and whatever came to hand?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

By the hair

Back again!

If he/she wanted to pull Liz off balance, why not grab her by the hair? This would have put her throat in a good position for cutting as well.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Mud

Hello Fisherman,

Got me there!

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Wouldn't she have got mud on her back anyway, just from lying on the ground? It had been raining. Perhaps the yard was regularly swept and cleaned - no mud.

Best wishes,
C4

I think what Jon has been saying all along is that she lay on her left side - NOT on her back. Thatīs why she had no mud on the back of her clothes, whereas there was a good deal of it on the left side of her clothing. As for the "no mud" suggestion, Phillips effectively dispells any such thing: "There was mud on the left side of the face and it was matted in the head".

So she never was on her back for a split second. She went down on her left side and stayed on it throughout.

All the best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

pulling off balance

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?"

As in my re-enactment? OK.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Choked

But the hands were not clenched though, according to Blackwell. Her right hand was open across her chest. Her left hand was only partially closed.

Although the scarf had been pulled tight there is no indication it was as a result of choking, it could just as easily have been from the killer pulling on the scarf to restrain her as described by Blackwell.
"....the murderer probably caught hold of the silk scarf, which was tight and knotted, and pulled the deceased backwards, cutting her throat in that way."

Apparently, in his opinion, not used to strangle her just pull her off balance?

.

Hello Wickerman,

How do you feel about choked until she passes out, after just the one cut she takes longer to die, partially regains consciousness and puts her right hand up to her throat because it hurts/feels strange (explaining the blood on her hand) and then lets her hand fall back again across her chest?

Wouldn't she have got mud on her back anyway, just from lying on the ground? It had been raining. Perhaps the yard was regularly swept and cleaned - no mud.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Corrected

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

"Didn't Blackwell say that he was responsible for spilling the cachous when he made his examination? One of the medical men, anyway."

Yes. Of course, if some cachous were spilled before that time, it would precipitate a huge change in my opinion of the case.

"Clenched hands = sign of strangulation."

Better:

Clenched hands = movement/pressure to throat.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I stand corrected.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[ukranianphil]

No, thats not what I'm referring to.
Dr Phillips is explaining how he thinks she acquired the bruises, by pressure on both shoulders from the front.
He says she was placed on the ground by someone pushing her down using both shoulders. This suggests she is being pushed down on her back, that is what I am pointing out.
And yes, the perpetrator was likely by her right side.

.

I see what you mean, when i get back from the football tonight
i am going to go over the inquest again.
I don't think she acquired her bruising from someone pushing from the front.