Stride Bruising

[Archaic]

Collar-Bone Bruising?

The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder.

Hi Tom. I'm having trouble visualizing this.

If you grab someone by the shoulders from behind, don't your fingers go over the top of the shoulders, causing your thumbs to naturally go into the upper back/top-line of the shoulder?

I can't picture how grabbing someone from behind results in a thumb going into the collar bone area.

If grabbing from behind resulted in collar-bone bruising, wouldn't someone have had to reach pretty much over her shoulders in order to dig his fingers in under the collar-bone?

It makes more sense to me that Liz was grabbed from behind by the face with one hand and her throat instantly cut with the other hand, then as her body slumped the killer grabbed the top of her shoulders from behind to keep the blood away from him as he laid her down on the ground. That way his fingers would dig in hard under her collar-bone, causing the peri-mortem bruising there.

Thanks,
Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Archaic. I'll have to think over your scenario a bit, because I don't see the need to touching the shoulders there. As for what I suggested....do you have small hands? I don't, nor I'd bet did BS Man. Stride wasn't a large woman, so what I described is perfectly possible, especially with a man who wants her to feel some pain. Also, I'm trying to work with the written record, and there's only one witnessed and recorded contact between a man and Stride's shoulders, and that's with what Schwartz say. I perfectly conceed that the injuries to Stride's shoulders might have absolutely nothing to do with anything Schwartz saw. But medically speaking, it's a near certainty that these bruises occurred within minutes before or after her death.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dave and all. Schwartz has Stride getting grabbed on the shoulders (per the Star), so I don't see how corroborating medical evidence could render him a liar? Are you aware of how thick her skirts were? The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder. If this someone was BS Man, then as she fell his grip may have slowed her fall, thus no scrapes or bruise.

Hi Tom

Fair enough perhaps...but last weekend whilst accepting delivery of some shopping, I simply stumbled on our front steps (no push, no huge impact to speak of) and ended up with torn jeans, a visibly abraded knee, four bleeding knuckles on my right wrist (where I attempted to save myself) and a visibly bruised left arm...this from a simple stumble...ok her skirts may've been thick, and we do all differ, but I simply stumbled...she was allegedly thrown...

If she was sensitive enough to bruise that badly on her shoulders, she was sensitive enough to bruise from being thrown to the ground...I am at the very least suspicious of the Schwartz testimony...

All the best

Dave

[Addy]

Hi all,

You can also drag someone along the arm while they are on their feet. She wouldn't become dirty then. Perhaps he pulled her by the arm inside the gates trying to get out of the public view and then started to talk to her to keep her quiet? And I don't think she would have started screaming when he pulled her arm, prostitutes were probably used to that sort of treatment.

The mud only came onto her left side as she was laid on the ground after her throat was cut.

Greatings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

reconstruction points

Hello Addy. I personally find it helpful to try to visualise the exact sequence of events in any of the killings. It would be interesting to try to harmonise the following bits of information in Liz's case.

1. Liz is found with cachous in left hand, held between thumb and forefinger, none spilled.

(Here, one must account not only for the manner in which she retained them, but also one must provide oneself a good explanation concerning why she had them in her hand at the moment of death and not in her pocket.)

2. Mud/moisture on one side (left) only.

(She was found lying on her left side as well.)

3. She "looked as if lain gently down."

(No signs of a struggle, no torn dress, etc.)

4. Her head is pointing in a general western direction; her feet eastward.

(Looks like she is NOT going into the yard at the time.)

5. No signs of arterial spray.

6. Scarf is cut slightly and its knot is tight and to the left.

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

The cachous will probably remain a mystery. I can think of some reasons she had them in her hand, but they are just my thoughts! : her killer gave them to her to distract her attention or he asked her for them. Something like that.

To the other things:
2 Seems self-evident, she was lying on her left side and that was where the mud was
3 The others probably didn't struglle either, there were no defensive wounds (except for Mary Kelly, there was one on her hand I believe). They were killed too quick for that. The killer was also disturbed, so he had no time to do more to the body (and if you don't think Stride a Ripper victim, why would another killer tear her dress or anything like that?)
4 When her throat was cut and her knees buckled, her killer could put her in any position he wanted. And she didn't have to look as if she was going into the yard, she was already in the yard
5 Her left carotid artery was only punctured, not cut through. She slowly bled to death. Her windpipe was severed, so she couldn't cry out. If there was only a small puncture, I don't think you would get arterial spray
6 The scarf was used to pull her head back to expose the throat. The knife then cut the lower edge while the knot was being pulled tight. This would have happened before the above, so this one should probably be number two.

This is how I harmonise these things, someone probably has other explanations.

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Addy. Thanks.

"The cachous will probably remain a mystery. I can think of some reasons she had them in her hand, but they are just my thoughts!"

Like all the rest of us.

"her killer gave them to her to distract her attention"

Very well. Was that BS man? If so, was it before or after the attack?

"or he asked her for them. Something like that."

I see. But how did he know that she had them?

"2 Seems self-evident, she was lying on her left side and that was where the mud was"

Quite. Of course, that precludes rolling or dragging.

"3 The others probably didn't struglle either, there were no defensive wounds (except for Mary Kelly, there was one on her hand I believe)."

A struggle may happen without defensive wounds.

"The killer was also disturbed, so he had no time to do more to the body"

Disturbed? By whom? And have we any evidence for that?

"(and if you don't think Stride a Ripper victim, why would another killer tear her dress or anything like that?)"

1. Actually, I don't think ANYONE a ripper victim. 2. Liz's dress was not torn.

"4 When her throat was cut and her knees buckled, her killer could put her in any position he wanted."

Is she standing? If so, where is the blood spurt?

"And she didn't have to look as if she was going into the yard, she was already in the yard'

Here, we agree.

"5 Her left carotid artery was only punctured, not cut through. She slowly bled to death. Her windpipe was severed, so she couldn't cry out. If there was only a small puncture, I don't think you would get arterial spray"

I can live with that. But Polly and Annie both had the carotid completely severed. Perhaps he was having a bad day, or so I have been given to understand?

"6 The scarf was used to pull her head back to expose the throat."

Such a lever may or may not be effective in that regard. But it would certainly abduct the head.

"The knife then cut the lower edge while the knot was being pulled tight. This would have happened before the above, so this one should probably be number two."

I can live with this, sequence notwithstanding.

Any thoughts on how/where they met?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave,

These aren't new points, and in something I wrote years ago exploring the idea that Schwartz lied, I too talk about the lack of scrapes where one might expect to find scrapes. But the truth is, we don't have Schwartz's statement at all, just a condensed version by Swanson, so we don't really know what Schwartz saw happen, only that BS man turned her around and she ended up on the ground.

Hi Addy,

So the scenario you prefer is one where BS man knocks Stride down, then helps her up, then drags her by the arm (while still on her feet) into the passageway, where he puts her face first against the wall and cuts her throat, all without her making the slightest sound? Not impossible, and I agree that we should not expect a street prostitute to cry out the way a modern woman would if handled in this way, but do you really see this as the most likely scenario?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious4]

Schwarz

Evening all,

There was time for Liz to have met someone after Schwarz saw her.

Best wishes,
C4

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, there certainly was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

I think BS man was her killer, so I suppose he gave the cachous to her after Schwarz had left, otherwise she would indeed have put them in her pocket. As for your other question: that's why I think the cachous will always remain a mystery!

I think her killer was disturbed by Diemschutz. And in your points you said: her dress wasn't torn or anything. Hence my reply: if she was killed by someone else, why would he tear her dress?

As for the puncture: that probably occured when she was standing and it might still not give an arterial spurt. He could have been in a hurry, knowing he was seen or indeed had a bad day. It could also have something to do with the fact she was killed by a different type of knife.

I have no particular thoughts on how or where they met. It could be pre-arranged or she just picked him up in the streets just like the other victims did

Greetings,

Addy

PS: I know you don't believe in a Ripper, but even then: all victims met their killer in the streets.

[Addy]

Hi Tom,

It doesn't sound very logical like that, I agree. I think it all took a bit longer, so they had their "fight" as witnessed by Schwarz, then he dragged her into the gateways. He could have told her he did not want to be seen or that they might be arrested if they continued like that or something similar. When she calmed down he would have proposed "business" and she would have turned herself towards the wall. Then he cut her throat.

After all, between the incident seen by Schwarz and Diemschutz finding the body, 15 minutes had passed. That is enough time for them to talk before the killing occured and that would (in my opinion) also be the time when he handed her the cachous or ask her if she had anything for him (for his throat or any other excuse) to divert her attention when he produced the knife. I don't think he had the knife in his hands all the time, I assume she would have protested if she had seen a knife.

Greetings,

Addy

[lynn cates]

some points

Hello Addy. Thanks.

"I think BS man was her killer . . . "

Well, if BS man actually existed, then I believe he did it.

" . . . so I suppose he gave the cachous to her after Schwarz had left . . . "

After having attacked her? Perhaps a gesture of good will?

"As for your other question: that's why I think the cachous will always remain a mystery!"

Perhaps we make our own mystery where none exists?

"I think her killer was disturbed by Diemschutz."

Alright. It's a belief, but we all have them.

"And in your points you said: her dress wasn't torn or anything. Hence my reply: if she was killed by someone else, why would he tear her dress?"

Well, Kate's was cut and torn.

"As for the puncture: that probably occured when she was standing and it might still not give an arterial spurt. He could have been in a hurry, knowing he was seen or indeed had a bad day. It could also have something to do with the fact she was killed by a different type of knife."

Do you have solid evidence for this?

"I have no particular thoughts on how or where they met. It could be pre-arranged or she just picked him up in the streets just like the other victims did."

Well, if it's BS man, surely we know how she met him--given the Schwartz story?

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

Hi Lynn,

I don't want to make mysteries where there are none, however the fact is that she held those cachous for some reason or other. And that reason will probably remain a mystery!

Indeed, Kate's clothers were torn but that doesn't surprise me, seeing how she was mutilated. Her killer tore her clothes to get to her body. This wasn't the case with Liz.

Solid evidence for what? I think that her throat was cut when she was standing up. The puncture in the artery was probably not enough to cause arterial spurt. The puncture is a fact. The doctor who examined Liz stated she was killed with a different knife than the other victims, so I take this as a fact. As all this happened so long ago and a lot of documents are missing I think this is as close to solid evidence as you get.

Do you think, if it was BS man, that they met at the gates? They could have met anywhere and walked up to the gates before Schwartz came along. He wasn't standing there, he came walking down the street, so they could have arrived there shortly before he passed by, comng up from wherever they met.

If you don't think it was BS man, who do you think killed Liz Stride? (Out of curiosity)

Greetings,

Addy

[Archaic]

re: Bruising and Dr's Remark

As for the bruises on her shoulder, I'm not so sure they had anything to do with her murder, though they may have been from BS Man push.

Thanks for clarifying that, Tom; I had thought you were saying that the bruises were inflicted at the time of her murder.

> Does anybody know if the doctor ever explained his remark about seeing shoulder bruising in two other murder cases and "watching for" them?

> Was he referring to suspected Ripper murders, and if so does anybody know which ones?

Thanks very much,
Archaic