Stride Bruising

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave and all. Schwartz has Stride getting grabbed on the shoulders (per the Star), so I don't see how corroborating medical evidence could render him a liar? Are you aware of how thick her skirts were? The bruise under the collar bone of her right shoulder suggests, as I stated before, that someone grabbed her shoulders from behind, his thumb going under her collar bone and his fingers over the front of her shoulder. If this someone was BS Man, then as she fell his grip may have slowed her fall, thus no scrapes or bruise.

Incidentally, the fact that the bruising was not immediately apparent, but slowly rose under the skin following death, suggests it's peri mortem bruising, which means it occurred within a few minutes either before or after death. Technically, it's not impossible that it was caused by the men who picked her body up and carried her inside the club, though I would think this extremely unlikely given the time we're told this occurred, which would have been more than an hour after she died.

Now what do you make of that chest bruise?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Hi Bunny,

I believe, during his recall, Phillips spoke of an abrasion on Elizabeth Stride's neck that turned out not to be so after he wiped it off with a damp towel. However, he did speak of an abrasion under her right brow during his first appearance.

As we know, his hypothesis was that the killer grabbed her by the shoulders from behind and pulled her down, cutting her throat afterwards. You raise an interesting question as to how he could do that with both hands, then keep her down while he drew the knife. Neither Phillips' or Blackwell's scenarios seemed to set well with the coroner and as far as the inquest was concerned, it went unresolved.

The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

There were no abrasions to her face, just mud mistaken for abrasions. Regarding Phillips, he was not aware that Dr. Blackwell had spilled the cachous from Stride's hand at the time he concocted his explanation. He thought there had been some sort of struggle. Neither doctor could explain how Stride had been silently subdued and laid to the ground, and Phillips quite rightfully pointed out that just because no one came forth who heard her cry out, does not mean that she didn't.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying.

I agree about the left hand over her face, or rather, in a chokehold around her nose and mouth, which might have incapacitated her (vs. fainting, as proposed by some). She might have drawn her knees in reflex already when being lowered to the ground. I assume the assailant was primarily interested in her not making any noise and in staying away from the blood. The whole thing must have happened real swift and quick, as the cachous in her hand testify.

Dr. Phillips returned to the mortuary on at least two more occasions after the initial post-mortem at 3 p.m. Monday. In the same testimony reported in the Times he later said, "On Tuesday I again went to the mortuary to observe the marks on the shoulders." He mentions on recall on Friday that he and Drs. Brown and Blackwell had returned to the mortuary for a third time "after the last examination" possibly on Wednesday before that session of the inquest commenced.

Could you clarify on the dates for Monday/Tuesday, Cris?
Pertaining to peri-mortem bruises: No clue how long it might have taken them to form, but I know from extensive experience with frequent crashing in sports that bruises take from 24-48 hours to form. I wonder if in postmortem condition this process accelerates due to the blood "settling" due to gravity/lack of blood circulation. But somehow I can't imagine Stride to have formed bruises less than 12-6 hours after being pushed/pulled by BS and her killer.

[lynn cates]

forensic quandary

Hello Cris.

"The only way I can see something like this working would be that he pulled her down by the shoulders, placed his left hand over her face while he drew the knife (hence the abrasion under her right brow), and once he got the knife out he grabbed the knot of her scarf to steady her (she was probably trying turn over on her left side to right herself) and cut her throat in that way. Her legs drew up in reflex as she was dying."

1. If he threw her down as described, she should be just outside where the gates would close. Besides Kozebrodske, no one placed her body there. It seems, rather, that she died just west of the open gates, her feet just inside (although I recognise that there were three versions of her east/west body placement). Given the length of the open gates, her initial position at take down versus her final position at throat cutting are off by about 5-6 feet.

2. If she were lying on her left side and he pulled her up by the scarf, would not the knot be tight and to the right--not left?

3. Were the cachous in her left hand all this time?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Tom.

"Neither doctor could explain how Stride had been silently subdued and laid to the ground. . . "

Indeed, but Blackwell suggested the possibility of about a two second take down from behind.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

swift

Hello Maria.

"The whole thing must have happened real swift and quick, as the cachous in her hand testify."

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Dr. Phillips' profile of how it went down is simply not workable in any way. Dr. Blackwell was probably a little closer to the truth in his explanations. It's important to remember these men were medical doctors and not crime scene profilers.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Dr. Blackwell's version

Hello Tom. Quite agree. As much as I respect Dr. Phillips, I tend to be much closer to Dr. Blackwell's version.

Cheers.
LC

[Addy]

So Addy, Broad shouldered man isn't the killer?

Dave

Hi Dave and all,

It seems most likely that BS man was the killer. I think he first struggled with Stride (as seen by Schwarz) and when Schwarz left he dragged her into the gates and killed her, in which action he pulled her head backwards by pulling the scarf.

Greetings,

Addy

[Abby Normal]

Hi Dave and all,

It seems most likely that BS man was the killer. I think he first struggled with Stride (as seen by Schwarz) and when Schwarz left he dragged her into the gates and killed her, in which action he pulled her head backwards by pulling the scarf.

Greetings,

Addy

Hi Addy
Totally agree.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Addy and Abby,

Then how do you explain why her clothes were only wet and muddied on the left side? It had just stopped raining 90 or so minutes before and the ground would be wet and quite dirty, particularly inside the gates. If she were dragged even a very short distance, her clothes on that side would be filthy, and a person can only be dragged on their front or back side. And was she conscious as she was being dragged? Why did she hold on to the cachous? Why not fight, struggle, and cry out at that point?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

evidences

Hello Tom. Quite. (I wasn't going to say anything, but . . .)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn. I thought you meant "be quiet". Lol. :-p
(Just kidding.) I'm glad we agree about the mud and the cachous and I've thought of someone who reads Russian for your Okhrana Palo Alto research. Can I email you in a couple days?

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Maria. Certainly.

Cheers.
LC