Arbeter Fraint's Take

[Simon Wood]

Hi Observer,

Scotland Yard employed dozens of translators.

LVP Britain was the [ever so discreet] vigilant state.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

I'm surprised there is no mention of the club women going outside to see if they could do anything, or at least provide a female presence. The idea of women staying indoors while the men take charge of the dead body of one of their co-genders seems really odd to me.

[Cogidubnus]

Oh dear

"Well if one were up the yard, watching from the door, one would be an undisclosed witness, wouldn't one?'

Indeed. And my private opinion is that is what happened. And if an Anarcho-Socialist had come forward, it would have entailed difficulties.

what unsettles me is that Gilyarovsky seems to have known too much too soon.

does it seem like that to anyone else?

How could he have seen blood? It seems that Dimshits had lit just the one match and that Gilyarovsky went to tell people without ever seeing the body.

Any thoughts on his too-early knowledge -- not just that she was dead, but that there was blood?

Looks like the makings of a good conspiracy theory here...the jewish/socialist/anarchist witness who didn't come forward!


Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Alternative

Or is it "Oh bless thee Schwartz, bless thee, thou art translated?"

Dave

[lynn cates]

What's in a name?

Hello Dave. Funny, that's my wife's name for me.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

mum

Hello (again) Dave. No, no conspiracy here. But many good reasons to shut up IF you did see something.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

But many good reasons to shut up IF you did see something.

...until perhaps the police catch on, and with some difficulty, confront you with another Jew as a suspect perhaps?

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

And when Kozebrodsky, (presumably alias Gilyarovsky), was arrested during a punch up at the club in March 1889 and convicted of assaulting a policeman, why was he 'recommended to mercy' - and when ordered to pay a fine of £4 or face one month's imprisonment, which did he select, and did the month inside include an illicit trip to the Seaside?

Just letting the thoughts turn over idly, as one does....

Dave

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

Scotland Yard employed dozens of translators.

LVP Britain was the [ever so discreet] vigilant state.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

Thanks for that, I gathered as much. Vigilant state indeed, and that is why I consider it unlikely that any clandestine group were ever guilty of the Whitechapel murders .

How about Arbeter Fraint though, do you think it was worthy of a translation?

Regards

Observer

[Wickerman]

Fresh, semi-clotted blood would run from her wrist to her palm/fingers.

Semi-clotted blood does run anywhere. Once the blood comes in contact with oxygen it begins to thicken, and stops running.
In fact clotted blood doesn't mean lumps of blood (someone thinks this was the grapes?).
When blood clots it just goes thick, so the blood stains on the 'back' & 'wrist' of Strides right hand was just that, smears of blood. No blood noted in the palm of her hand, presumably where the grapes would have been seen.
So, clotted blood does not equal grapes, there was no blood in her hand.

The important thing is to explain the "grapes" here, since we know for a fact that they never existed.

That should be no trouble Maria, just label them liars. Thats the usual tactic employed when a detail must be dismissed because it doesn't fit the paradigm.

Anyhow, the article is still of interest even though it does not refer to a Schwartz-type escapade. And, neither does it mention the Echo/Scotsman story, supposedly offered by Wess, the Secretary.
All together a little odd.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Hello (again) Dave. No, no conspiracy here. But many good reasons to shut up IF you did see something.

Cheers.
LC

Or perhaps if you had done something . . .

[mariab]

Maria,
You asked me about who was incharge of the scene at Berner Street.
Chief Inspector West would have been the rank taking control along with Inspector Pinchorn. Inspector Reid, CID, was late on the scene having heard of Strides death at 1.25am. Yes, both would be plain clothed.
I must concede, if any of the murder sites would attract SB attention then it would have been Berner Street. And their movements would have been more covert than overt obviously. Theres a few clues in the inquest testimony and reports which could be taken as an alluding to Special Branch involvement though the wording in Lynns wonderful transcription could, in my opinion, still be taken as CID.

Thank you so much Monty. I'll come back to you about this and about the WVC (in due time). Plus inspector Arnold too was documentedly there, right?
Monty, any ideas of who would have been in charge of investigations pertaining to William Wess' cigar contraband? A Victorian equivalent of ATF? :-)
And I'll definitely have a look in Spiro Demolianis chapter of his book about the SB.

Also, If the police were as interested in the IWEC as some poster's would have us believe, would they have had translations of the paper carried out for their own perusal?

If the police had translated the AF, I wish we'd stumble upon those translations, so that Lynn wouldn't be required to open his wallet and I wouldn't be going through a Yiddish alphabet soup in search of specific words sitting on the floor under a lamp. Lol.
Seriously now Observer, this is a question I've asked myself, and what I can tell you is that the French secret police doesn't appear to have used translations of the AF, at least they don't mention anything about translating the paper, though there's mention of confiscating the paper in their reports. The AF also circulated in Paris. French secret police appears to have proceeded the old fashioned way, meddling with the anarchists and keeping their ears pricked up. On the other side, it appears that the AF avoided announcing scheduled anarchist meetings (which we know they took place from the police reports), so maybe the London police was monitoring the newspaper. So far the only documentation we have is from the FRENCH secret police (located by me during my search on anarchists in Paris at the Archives Nationales and in the Archives of the Paris Police Museum), and I have no idea if anyone has ever attempted looking for similar police reports in London. Maybe someone should?

Anyhow, the article is still of interest even though it does not refer to a Schwartz-type escapade. And, neither does it mention the Echo/Scotsman story, supposedly offered by Wess, the Secretary.

Or BECAUSE it does not refer to a Schwartz-type escapade. Wickerman, just READ the Echo/Scotsman report. It QUOTES Wess for goodness frickin' sake. You're something else.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman, just READ the Echo/Scotsman report. It QUOTES Wess for goodness frickin' sake. You're something else.

Like "I" said, the story was "supposedly" offered by Wess. He is "not" quoted (I'm assuming you know the difference between a quote and a reference?).

The Secretary (Wess) is given as the source, but not quoted anywhere.
Assuming Wess was the source, the story is at best second hand because Wess, by his own admission, had left the club at 12:15 am.

Therefore, the Echo only had a second-hand source. So, why didn't they track down the originator of the story?, because we know it wasn't Wess.

The fact this AF article makes no inference to this "chase along Fairclough St." only casts more doubt on the viability of the Echo story as a whole.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

There's no "supposedly" here. This is the IWEC secretary speaking, AKA William Wess. Referencing an entirely non viable story to cover his Club's a$$.

[Tom_Wescott]

Debs and Schwartz

I'm going to try to ignore the more non-sensical posts on this thread, but there have been many good comments and questions I'd like to take a stab at.

Debs,

The Echo report, which was an interview with William Wess, offers a garbled version of the Schwartz story, and there can be little doubt that the Schwartz episode is the inspiration for the story. I believe the characters were twisted by the reporter, but it's possible it was Wess. Considering that the club had only about 15 'members' but many times that in attendees, Wess would have been telling the truth, perhaps with a wink, when he said that the man (Schwartz) was not a member of his club. But since Wess, an integral member of the club, was aware of the Schwartz incident prior to publication of this Arbeter Fraint edition, it's natural that Lynn would be looking for Schwartz in the journal, as was I. Only unlike Lynn, I'm not surprised to find no mention of him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Edit: Just to be clear, my first sentence regarding nonsense does not refer to anything Debs has written. I realized upon re-reading that I may have inadvertently left the wrong impression.