Was Liz's "Date" Necessarily a Romantic One?

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course, if it were a geranium, YOU might die within the hour--from the smell.

Cheers.
LC

that is precisely what the missus said. The stink would keep clients away.
Apparently Geraniums are planted in flower beds to keep undesirable bugs & pests out (peuw!).

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

wife

Hello Jon. Hmm, I think your wife needs to start posting. Case may actually be solved.

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Just to be clear, I was not arguing that Liz was on a date. What I was asking was, if we make that assumption, did it necessarily have to be what we would think of as a romantic date or could it simply have been what the client wanted?

An interestng distinction c.d. I've read that prostitutes often have clients who just want to talk. The point here is that Stride appears to have spent a great deal of time with a particular person, who was quite well dressed and didn't seem to be someone 'who would get his hands dirty' according to one witness. Don't you think that if this guy was just a customer she would given him a knee trembler or one off the wrist for a few pennies and moved on? And do you know that Packer described him as having broad shoulders?

[mariab]

Right on, folks. Stride was on a veeeery long date with a guy who kept changing his attire and hats. He payed nightly wages. Sounds almost like the plot of Pretty woman.

Hello Maria,
Thanks for asking about me. I am okay. I can no longer access the site from work so I am not on here as much as before but I still look in on it on a regular basis. Hope all is well with you. See you on the Stride thread.

Hi CD. Cool to hear you're fine. I'm in the same time zone as you right now. ;-)

You're letting the female team down Maria.
Funny how those officials never thought to ask a woman what the flower was, what do men know about flowers anyway, given the variety of male opinions, zip!

Possibly it's generational, but I wouldn't be able to tell most flowers from another to save my life. I know daisies, roses, carnations, ortensias, and geraniums – but had no idea they stink. Only thing I know about dahlias is the black dahlia case. As for Stride's flower, I was under the impression it was a fake, an accessory. The way Fish talked about "sprayed", I assumed it was spray painted. As for "maidenhair fern or baby's breath", still clueless on what those might be.

An interestng distinction c.d. I've read that prostitutes often have clients who just want to talk.

Hence my joke to CD about "the GF experience", though I very much doubt this was a known practice in Victorian Whitechapel. Plus, Stride was reported as being kissed by one of the men she was seen with.

And do you know that Packer described him as having broad shoulders?

Packer most certainly didn't see him.

[Wickerman]

.... The way Fish talked about "sprayed", I assumed it was spray painted.

Spray painted?... in 1888?

No Maria, a "spray" is a collage of flowers, like you wear at a wedding. Thats what a "spray of flowers" is.

As for "maidenhair fern or baby's breath", still clueless on what those might be.

You should get yourself a computer, look it up

Packer most certainly didn't see him.

And yet, PC Smith did?

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

To Wickerman:
Thanks for explaining about the “spray“ of flowers. I was imagining spray painting the way the French decorate desserts, which was already existing since the 17th century.
(I'm more familiar with French pastry than with ikebana, hehe.)

PC Smith saw someone else, very likely an IWEC member carrying a package of the AF. (I know Lynn will back me up on this. :-)) I'm familiar with your views on Packer, Wickerman, but I'm with PC Smith and inspector Swanson here. Packer was lying.

[lynn cates]

wife

Hello Stephen.

"I've read that prostitutes often have clients who just want to talk."

Hmm, and have her talk back? In which case, they are being robbed. They need to meet my wife. She would talk--no charge.

Cheers.
LC

[Stephen Thomas]

Packer most certainly didn't see him.

And here was I thinking you were a clever person, Maria.

No way can you state what Packer certainly didn't see.

[jason_c]

Hello Lynn,

Actually, I was going in the opposite direction. The date argument is usually used to support the theory that the killing was domestic in nature. Jealousy of some type being the main motive. I was attempting to show that the date could have been business in nature thus removing jealousy as the motive, it being simply part of an evening of prostitution.

I would expect evidence of Liz planning something long term with someone would have turned up in the investigation. Liz mentioning her intentions to a friend for example.

Finally, were the Anarchists that much poorer than the average working man in Whitechapel?

c.d.

I dont know if this question has been answered but any further info on this would be welcome.

[lynn cates]

Fishman

Hello Jason. OK. Further. A greener worked almost for food. They were worse off than the average working person in Whitechapel.

A good source of information on this topic is Fishman's "East End: 1888." A must read for social conditions and the plight of the greeners.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

No way can you state what Packer certainly didn't see.

We can state with certainty that he didn't see a posh man (“broad shouldered“ or not) buying grapes for Stride and standing with her for half an hour in the rain.

Finally, were the Anarchists that much poorer than the average working man in Whitechapel?
I dont know if this question has been answered but any further info on this would be welcome.

Lynn Cates is the resident specialist on Victorian anarchists, but if I ventured a guess, I'd expect that the recruited club members doing odd jobs were much worse off than the average Whitechapel inhabitant holding a job. I have no idea about Rombro's and Wess' “net worth“, ;-) but I was hoping to attempt to look them up in a couple months, when attempting to research some Victorian financial info. (I've got a possibility to research this through a contact at the LMA, but obviously can't guarantee any results.)

PS.: Oops. Lynn was quicker.

[lynn cates]

Wess et al.

Hello Maria. Wess did alright for himself, being in the cigar trade. Rombro knew his way around printing, so he likely did OK too.

But the rank and file? If not for the grinding poverty, the change in perspective (Anarcho/Socialism) would likely be a non-starter for them.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
Completely agree and the way I see it, both the IWEC and its members were using each other for their own agendas.

[Wickerman]

To Wickerman:
Thanks for explaining about the “spray“ of flowers. I was imagining spray painting the way the French decorate desserts, which was already existing since the 17th century.
(I'm more familiar with French pastry than with ikebana, hehe.)

PC Smith saw someone else, very likely an IWEC member carrying a package of the AF. (I know Lynn will back me up on this. :-)) I'm familiar with your views on Packer, Wickerman, but I'm with PC Smith and inspector Swanson here. Packer was lying.

Hi Maria.
What it is Maria, you seem to dismiss Packer's story because you have bought another story that you prefer to believe.
Packer's account was dismissed because he changed his story, he was not accused of lying, and not because he invented the man.

Stride was at the Bricklayers Arms shortly before 11:00, so she could not have walked up to Packer from Backchurch Lane at 11:00.
The 11:00-11:30 sighting is a mistake, he was unsure about the time, that is all. 12:00-12:30 fits better all around, and therefore PC Smith may very well confirm Packer.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

To Wickerman:
Yes, I have totally bought inspector Swanson's notes pertaining to Packer's “testimony“, and as a general rule I have a tendency to believe what is backed up by evidence. Incidentally, every single experienced Ripperologist, including SPE, is aware of the fact that Packer lied.
I'm not clear on why you so blindly insist on trying to see the Packer "testimony" as a fact, going as far as imagining he mixed up his times. But I've grown accustomed to the fact that this is a typical Wickermannism. :-)