Was Liz's "Date" Necessarily a Romantic One?

[lynn cates]

agreement

Hello Cris. So you tend to agree with CD?

Can't wait to see what Christer might add along these lines.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

I've never been convinced by the evidence of a date. A flower and some breath mints does not a date make. Nicholl's had her pretty new bonnet yet no-one implies she had been on a date. A convicted prostitute loitering around a darkened yard after midnight is in all likelihood soliciting. A flower and sweet breath just makes you marginally more appealing to passing punters.

[lynn cates]

statement

Hello Jason.

"Nicholl's had her pretty new bonnet yet no-one implies she had been on a date."

Perhaps that's because we have Polly's own statement--just like Annie's. Those always trump conjecture. But in Liz and Kate's case, conjecture is all we have.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Richard. I think you are absolutely correct there.

I say, perhaps that would tie in with the clerkly fellow whom Christer is interested in?

A Clerk you say?, lets see if we can Fish Christer out...

I've never been convinced by the evidence of a date. A flower and some breath mints does not a date make.

Maybe not Jason, but perfume was a recent creation, and only for the well-to-do. Prior to this, flowers were the most common way to improve the scent of personal hygene. Breath mints tends to support the intention.

Whether Stride made this effort every time she went out is hard to say.

Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

Thank you for a pertinent, informed post (#13) Hunter.

I've never been convinced by the evidence of a date. A flower and some breath mints does not a date make. Nicholl's had her pretty new bonnet yet no-one implies she had been on a date. A convicted prostitute loitering around a darkened yard after midnight is in all likelihood soliciting. A flower and sweet breath just makes you marginally more appealing to passing punters.

Precisely.


There are at least 3 (circular) threads in the Stride folder discussing this question, including details on the flower. Do we really need another one?
Pertaining to the flower, David and Lynn, see this old post by Fisherman below:

It was, by all accounts, a rose arranged over some maidenhair fern, Maria. And since it was said that it was white and red, the notion seems to be that the fern may have been sprayed with something called baby´s breath, a popular thing at that time. All in all, it adds up to an elaborate, decorative arrangement in a small size, and not just a flower.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4960&page=3

[DVV]

Thanks Maria and Fish. Now it makes more sense.
Anybody willing to argue that this little bunch would explain Packer's geranium ? Where's AP ?

[c.d.]

Just to be clear, I was not arguing that Liz was on a date. What I was asking was, if we make that assumption, did it necessarily have to be what we would think of as a romantic date or could it simply have been what the client wanted?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

try--but not too hard

Hello Jon. Good one. But don't try TOO hard. If it turns out a domestic fracas, I may owe him a pint.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fern

Hello Maria. Thanks. Of course, the alternate, if I recall properly, was cucumber (?) fern.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Thanks Maria and Fish. Now it makes more sense.
Anybody willing to argue that this little bunch would explain Packer's geranium ? Where's AP ?

John Gardner (Bricklayers Arms) called them Dahlias.


Regards, Jon S.

[mariab]

The pink (vs. the black) dahlia? I'm not very good with flowers, accessories, and other girly stuff. Even Fish's quoted post below reads a bit like Chinese to me, what with "the maidenhair fern" and the "baby breath".

Anybody willing to argue that this little bunch would explain Packer's geranium? Where's AP?

AP's banned. Packer was most clearly coached and knew about the flower.
Wickerman most possibly might start disagreeing, thus I'm exiting the thread. :-)

Just to be clear, I was not arguing that Liz was on a date. What I was asking was, if we make that assumption, did it necessarily have to be what we would think of as a romantic date or could it simply have been what the client wanted?

Not sure if the Victorians had a concept of "the GF experience". By the by, I hope you're well, CD. Long time no talk.
And no, Stride was not with the same man all night, the hats and other details are too distinctive for this. Her having been witnessed with a different guy approximately every 45'min. fits with her having been working it.

[jason_c]

Just to be clear, I was not arguing that Liz was on a date. What I was asking was, if we make that assumption, did it necessarily have to be what we would think of as a romantic date or could it simply have been what the client wanted?

c.d.

What about the IWMC being the attraction for Stride? It was "chucking out" time after all. A group of drunken non religious Jews seems a decent bet to pick up at least one punter from. She may have had "regulars" amongst them.

Im not an expert on LVP prostitution, but hanging around the vicinity of pubs and clubs would be an excellent pitch for a prostitute.

[DVV]

AP's banned.

Aaaarfff. Pfffffff.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Over the years, some posters have argued that Liz's actions early that evening (i.e.,attention to her appearance and the flower) indicate that this was in preparation for a date. Now assuming for the sake of argument that they are correct, does that necessarlily imply that the date was what we would think of as a romantic one? In other words, a lover or suitor. Could it be that it was in fact a date, but more in line with prostitution? Maybe a blotchy type individual who didn't mind paying for sex but who also wanted a little companionship thrown into the mix. I would think that those types of "dates" end after the sex and the woman is left on her own. It would seem a natural progression to continue the evening by straight prostitution.

"Hello, luv, care for a quick one?"

c.d.

The problem with the date theory is that there seems to be no room for a rational explanation for this. Jack, nor anyone else tackling a prostitute, had a reason to arrange a meeting for further down the line.

The only possible explanation in my mind is that he met them during the day, not a good time to commit a murder, and so arranged to meet at night. We do know that Grainger and Sadler went on benders with prostitutes, so perhaps.

In order for the date thing to work, you have to argue that either he was picking out a certain type of prostitute, or he was picking out a location. If so, would you pick Berner Street or Mitre Square, and would one prostitute be much different to another?

Personally, I see the date thing as a non starter.

[c.d.]

Hello Mac,

Her date would not necessarily had to have been with Jack. It could have been anybody. It did not necessarily have to be a romantic date, it could have been a working date. The point being that a romantic date can go bad and a working date mostly likely ends after having sex. I think it is all pretty much a moot point. If I had to guess, I would say that Liz was probably working that night. But even if she had been on a date of any type, I think that it ended and she resorted to picking up customers. I think that is how she hooked up with Jack.

c.d.