Signs of suffocation?

[Tom_Wescott]

True--if she were bolt upright. But I envision her neck over the ground and only 2-3 feet above it.

Basically, my view on Liz is close to Blackwell's; yours, to Phillips. Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Actually, my view is spot on with Blackwell's, who felt it was most likely that Stride was already on the ground when her neck was cut. Garry Wroe also seemed to think Blackwell's hypothesis was different, because he hadn't compared the sources.

And if her neck were 2-3 feet above ground when cut, we'd see arterial spray on the pathway, well outside the gutter, and certainly on the wall. But it wasn't there.

For those following, I'm not throwing about theories here (unless I make it obvious I am, such as with the fainting, et al), but am merely reiterating facts that never seem to make it into the books, all of which have the Stride murder wrong.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Stride was strangled or suffocated before the knife was used.

Unfortunately, you're correct in that there's not enough evidence to prove she was strangled, but I'd argue there's enough to suggest it as a possibility, by the mere fact that Stride appears to have gone to the ground softly, quietly, and without struggle. It should not be assumed that strangulation always leaves the desired and obvious marks, because it does not.

Having said that, Maria's suggestion that some sort of a stranglehold was used is perhaps more likley. Meaning the use of his arm and not his hands. He may also have used a Vulcan neck pinch of sorts, as suggested years ago by Ivor Edwards, although this would not be a popular option for most Ripper commentators, as it would limit the known suspect pool down to only about Le Grand, so we'll skip that for the time being.

I remain completely fluid and open minded on this point (how Stride was subdued), and have suggested more than once that it may have been as simple as a fainting. However, I'll point out again that her legs were deformed, so knocking her off balance would not have been difficult at all. This should also be remembered when considering what Schwartz saw. If BS Man did not mean to knock Stride off her feet, then it no longer constitutes an 'attack' and BS Man's behavior my have been more in the way of obstinence than violence. But I digress...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

views

Hello Tom.

"Keep in mind that there's no question the scarf was pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut, as the knife follows the line of the scarf, even knicking it as it went along."

Absolutely agree.

"had she been standing, there'd be blood on the wall"

True--if she were bolt upright. But I envision her neck over the ground and only 2-3 feet above it.

Basically, my view on Liz is close to Blackwell's; yours, to Phillips'. Perhaps I can try yet another reenactment using your version this time. Ironically, it has been exactly 1 year (tomorrow) since I've done the last one.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, was she lying on her left side at the time? If so, would not such a move cause her scarf's knot to be tight and to the right?

Only if the killer grabbed the knot, which he apparently didn't do. Keep in mind that there's no question the scarf was pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut, as the knife follows the line of the scarf, even knicking it as it went along. As Grave observed, had she been standing, there'd be blood on the wall, and no need to utilize the scarf. The evidence, and not myself or Maria, requires Stride to have been on the ground, on her left side, with her scarf pulled tight at the moment her throat was cut.

From these facts, we can infer that it was necessary to use her scarf to lift her throat up before the blade of the knife was long. We already know from the wound it was clearly sharp, so it's quite consistent with the knife used to kill Eddowes...as well as a thousand other knives in Whitechapel. But anything you read arguing that the knife used on Stride was provably different from that used on Eddowes is absolutely mistaken.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Good grief Maria, what kind of a mixed bag is this?
:-)

How many times do I have to correct this in the Stride threads?..

You tried to do what?

Medicinally it doesn't make sense .....

What does medicine have to do with this?

...that she would have held unto the cachous if she became unconscious BEFORE her throat was cut. In that case her hands would have relaxed and she would have dropped the cachous.

When someone is strangled swiftly their hands will clench-up, smaller muscles tighten up as if in cramp (evident in judicial hangings). So she could have held onto anything in her hands.

The fact that she held on to the cachous points to death convulsions when she asphyxiated due to her jugular having been cut.

Asphyxiation has nothing to do with blood flow. Asphyxiation is purely associated with the larynx and airways.

Interupting the flow of blood, whether by pressure to the arteries/veins, or by cutting the same will only induce unconsciousness slowly, this is not a rapid death. A person with one carotid artery cut will slip into unconsciousness gradually. Muscles will relax and in all likelyhood she might have dropped the cachous.

It's most plausible that she was incapacitated through a stranglehold, not strangled, before her throat was attacked. Obviously it all went real quick, in one fluent movement.

A stranglehold will take minutes (1-2?) to take effect, depending on the killers experience and the method of application, but I'm not sure of the distinction you are making here.
You can impede breathing, or you can restrict blood flow. If he used a cord you would achieve both at the same time, and the effect would be measure in seconds.

I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Stride was strangled or suffocated before the knife was used.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Grave. Stride's throat was cut after she was on her side. Her left carotid artery was cut, thus the blood shot downward in the gutter. A puddle of it was also to be found on the large stone over which her neck laid. The gutter was a make shift one that ran alongside the house roughly 17 feet to the steps that led into the kitchen of the club. It was lined with jagged stones. Because of this impediment, the killer used Stride's scarf to lift her head up in order to get his knife blade under her throat. In short, he intended to sever the carotid and vocal chords. The jagged stones and exceptional dark were impediments he did not have in Hanbury street, which succinctly explains why we shouldn't expect to see the same depth in the cut. But the cut was certainly effective in its purpose.

As for the notion that she was dead before throat was cut, I would consider this extremely unlikely. Dr. Phillips noted that there was an 'unusual' amount of blood in the gutter. In my 2006 essay, I observed that this is probably due to the blood having mixed with some of the water from the earlier rain, making it appear more voluminous. Nevertheless, there must have been a good amount of blood, and certainly more than we'd expect to come from a person already dead.

She was indeed facing the wall when she fell/was lowered. According to Johnston, Blackwell's assistant, her knees were closer to the wall than her head. Contary to some statements, she was not lying across the pathway. Just mentioning all this to try and give you a visual.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

knotty problem

Hello Maria.

"it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat"

Well, was she lying on her left side at the time? If so, would not such a move cause her scarf's knot to be tight and to the right?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

The Ripper, not the strangler of Whitechapel

If we got into a debate like this, Ken, it reminds me of the Ramsey case, where it was not completely obvious if the little girl died from strangulation or through head trauma, as it was unclear which was fatal first. Still, for Stride it makes sense to say that there was no arterial spray because the perp cut her throat when she was lying face down on the ground, not standing up against the wall. The same with Chapman, where there was no arterial spray found on the fence. There is no evidence in the contemporary doctors' reports that these women died from strangulation vs. their throats being cut, even if they might have been partly incapacitated by strangulation or a stranglehold initially.

[The Grave Maurice]

Ken (if I may), it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat than for strangulation.

Of course you may, Maria...although I'm not sure why you say that your statement of the facts is more plausible. She was right next to a wall and there was no reported arterial spray. I would assume (although I'm out of my depth here) that would indicate that her heart had pretty much stopped beating before her throat was cut. Would the fact that it was only a "nick" make the difference?

[mariab]

Ken (if I may), it appears more plausible that Stride's scarf was used to pull up her head away from the ground when he cut her throat than for strangulation.

In the last week, I've encountered two speakers and one author who stated, as though it were a given, that the C5 were all at least partially strangled prior to death. This seems to be becoming a widely accepted theory concerning the the killer's MO.

Were the speakers participants in the Philly conference?
Unfortunately, at the last Ripperological conference I attended I even encountered a famous speaker and author who believes that Stride was a domestic by a secret lover, so perhaps it'd be better not to get into what all is presented at conferences.

Tom, how did we go from Berner Street to the entire Ripperology? As for being surpassed on Berner Street, a bit late I'm afraid, it's already happening to you. (Should have thought twice before teaching me so well, and now you have to suffer the consequences, as others have before you.)
At any rate, if you want to envision strangulation on Stride's case, you'd have to say attempted strangulation at the most. Which continued swiftly into throat cutting, which was her cause of death AND the reason why the cachous got stuck in her hand.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. While I agree that it's beyond debate that I'm the 'master' of Ripperology (I prefer 'Alpha and Omega'), I would beg to differ on the notion that I could ever be surpassed. Anyway, as to Stride, I wouldn't be too quick to rule out strangulation.

Grave,

Yes, most of what you will hear people say about the Ripper is generalized or just downright wrong, whether it's in a book, on the boards, or at conferences.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Grave Maurice]

Well, Polly had the marks on her throat, Annie had the slightly protruding tongue, Liz had the tight kerchief around her neck...those all seem to be signs of at least partial strangulation. With Kate and Mary, I don't think we have enough evidence, although there doesn't seem to have been much arterial spray in Kate's case, so I suppose strangulation is a possibility.

In the last week, I've encountered two speakers and one author who stated, as though it were a given, that the C5 were all at least partially strangled prior to death. This seems to be becoming a widely accepted theory concerning the the killer's MO.

[mariab]

Nope, I meant death convulsions, which happen through the body's stress around the time one's dying. Cadaveric convulsion essentially means muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, as in the position in which one ends up after they died. Chronologically death convulsions are followed by a cadaveric convulsion.
I'm not stressing out myself in the least, it comes very naturally. Arguably I've learned tons of things about the Stride case from you, but time has come that I can provide my own contributions on Berner Street, as you know that I'm working on Schwartz, the WVC, etc.. It's the natural flow of things that often the pupil ends up surpassing the master. ;-)
As for her hand not so much having had a grip at the cachous vs. them being lodged between her thumb and forefinger, unfortunately we can't be absolutely sure of this, after Dr. Johnston fully messed up the scene.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, but her hand didn't so much 'grip' the cachous as they were lodged between her thumb and forefinger. I would say her hands were relatively relaxed. And I believe you mean 'cadaveric spasms' as opposed to death convulsions. But I don't see those applying in the Stride case, as they do in Chapman. No need to stress yourself out in schooling me on the facts of the Stride case, Maria.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Morgana LeFay]

Oh, thanks!