How about this quick theory!

[Abby Normal]

Hi All,

Has anyone else compared Schwartz's claim that Stride "screamed three times, but not very loudly" with the saucy postcard's similar claim that 'Number One squealed a bit'?

If we didn't know better (and I'm not really sure here what we do know for a fact) one might be excused for making a connection between the two.

I don't think, however, that Schwartz could have known the text of the postcard when he made his police statement, or that 'Saucy Jacky' could have known what Schwartz would tell the police when he wrote those words.

Of course, the killer would have heard the nature and volume of Stride's cries if he was BS, or if he had witnessed the manhandling and waded in to offer assistance. He could even have chased BS away as he had a sharp knife to threaten him with.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
I have also thought that only the killer could have known such a detail as that, along with the ear thing and wanting to get to work "soon".
I think the biggest myth in Ripper world is that the Dear Boss letter and post card is a known hoax.

[caz]

Ideas? Not really, Lynn. But if that's your biggest problem, I have bags of sympathy.

Schwartz's words had to be translated, of course, whereas Saucy Jacky had no trouble with the vernacular of the butcher and the market place.

To my ear, squealing a bit would sound very much in tune with crying out not very loudly, and I can see how 'crying out' might have turned into 'screaming' when translated into English. It would certainly do away with the jarring note of the soft scream, would it not?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Agreed, Abby.

We may be the only two, you know.

Or maybe the only two brave or foolish enough to admit as much.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

improvement

Hello Caz. Well, that's certainly an improvement.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Was Stride the first of the victims reported to have screamed, squealed or cried out, shortly before being found dead?

If that's the case, "Jack the Ripper" made some rather decent guesses when penning his letter and postcard: another local unfortunate to die by the knife, very soon after the promise of another job; one that would make a noise this time (heard by at least one witness); and the first to be mutilated above the neck (Eddowes).

Not bad going if there was no serial killer around to guarantee any more of the same after Chapman, and a typical year only boasted a handful of knife murders of adult women in the whole of England.

Love,

Caz
X

[Stewart P Evans]

Yes...

...
Has anyone else compared Schwartz's claim that Stride "screamed three times, but not very loudly" with the saucy postcard's similar claim that 'Number One squealed a bit'?
If we didn't know better (and I'm not really sure here what we do know for a fact) one might be excused for making a connection between the two.
...
Caz

Yes, it's a very old debate.

[caz]

Aren't they all, Stewart. Aren't they all.



Without a resolution there is always room for debate, fortunately. We can choose to opt in or out too, so it's all good.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

Hello Caz.

"a typical year only boasted a handful of knife murders of adult women in the whole of England."

This may have been cold comfort to a 19 year old lady, done to death by a razor.

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Yes...

Aren't they all, Stewart. Aren't they all.
Without a resolution there is always room for debate, fortunately. We can choose to opt in or out too, so it's all good.
Caz
X

Yes, true Caz, very true.

Phil Sugden went into this one in some depth back in his 1994 book, he stated, 'Finally, it is regularly claimed that the postcard's statement that 'number one [Stride] squealed a bit' is proof of the killer's authorship because only the murderer could have known such a detail. This argument, of course, assumes that the information given about Stride was correct...Only one (Israel Schwartz) swore to hearing screams...But even if this were so it is the kind of detail a hoaxer could easily have invented and stood a good chance of getting right.'

And that was before we ever started discussing it on the boards. The press had been discussing the odd absence of cries or screams in the cases leading up to the 'double event' and then, on the day (the 30th) the postcard must have been written, the papers published the following from the Chapman inquest reports, 'The murder seems, like the Buck's-row case, to have been carried out without any cry...'. So it's ever likely that a hoaxer would have picked up on this and mentioned a victim 'squealing a bit'.

[caz]

Hello Caz.

"a typical year only boasted a handful of knife murders of adult women in the whole of England."

This may have been cold comfort to a 19 year old lady, done to death by a razor.

Cheers.
LC

Just the one, Lynn?

Hi Stewart,

Indeed, although any hoaxer would have had to make the choice between continuing with the silent theme or ringing the changes and claiming that the next one had made a bit of a noise.

Not much in it as far as I can see.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

Twain

Hello Caz. Actually, I have snippets about a couple of kids who were nearly decapitated. But, given a highly selected population sample, I'm SURE they don't count.

I begin to understand the import of Clemens' dictum, "Lies, damned lies and statistics."

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

The thing is, the original claim by the minimalists, which Colin Roberts and others were seeking to test, was that London prossies were routinely found dead in the streets in the 1880s, murdered by unknown knifemen.

So when testing this claim, it would be slightly unreasonable to expect decapitated kids, razor deaths, suicides, solved domestics and so on to 'count', as you put it.

But Colin was in fact extremely fair and generous with his 'highly selected population sample'. He didn't only look for murdered London prossies; he counted in every adult female murdered by knife in the whole of England.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

claim

Hello Caz. Thanks for your reply and clarification.

"London prossies were routinely found dead in the streets in the 1880s, murdered by unknown knifemen."

New one on me. It seems easy to debunk such a claim just by trawling the period papers. Personally, I have found little evidence of prostitute murders--by knife or otherwise.

Have found many attacks on both men and women, young and old, by knife and razor. Many survived. I suppose that is of no interest?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Have found many attacks on both men and women, young and old, by knife and razor. Many survived. I suppose that is of no interest?

Cheers.
LC

Of general interest, possibly Lynn - but why particularly on a thread about Liz Stride? She was not a man, she was neither young nor old, no razor was involved and the knife wound gave her no chance of survival.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

questions, questions

Hello Caz. Good question. It is on a par, I think, with, "Why a thread involving Liz Stride on a site devoted to Jack the Ripper?" (Heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC