How about this quick theory!

[lynn cates]

plans

Hello Malcolm.

"now did Liz say something like ``go away`` or say something far worst, we'll never know, but doing so plus screwing up his plans, is almost guaranteeing her fate."

Hmm. What were his plans? If the Schwartz story is to be believed, it looks like just a random encounter.

Which, by the way, is another good reason for me to think that Israel's story (or whomever devised it) is more BS than just the man.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

job description

Hello CD.

"Liz was a veteran of the streets and the streets that she worked were far from pleasant. They were frequented by rough, lower class men who more often than not were drunk when they availed themselves of her services. It was not a profession for the faint of heart."

Although I'm sure you know my position vis-a-vis Liz and her purported prostitution, let's say for a moment that Liz, being "turned out" by Michael Kidney, really IS forced onto the streets after half a week to earn a living.

Yet, that is a long way from portraying this person, long since in a relationship with Michael, as a career prostitute.

Let's not get carried away and mistake casual prostitution with modern day "professionalism."

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Mal,

The impression conveyed by Schwartz was that the BS man pushed her to the ground and pulled her either towards the yard or away from it.

Hunter,

Swanson stated that it was "not clearly proved" that the BS man was Stride's killer. That doesn't mean he (or the police as a collective) considered the alternative to be realistic.

Jon,

Swanson's police report did not contain any reference to the pipeman carrying a knife.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Jon,

Swanson's police report did not contain any reference to the pipeman carrying a knife.

The BS man was almost certainly Stride's killer, and any protestations to the contrary still strike me as very unreasonable, I'm afraid.

Ben, Swanson's police report did not contain any reference to BS carrying a knife.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

I think you exaggerate the risks associated with prostitution. Yes, it was a high risk occupation, but it was not as though Stride could realistically expect to be pulled around and thrown to the floor on an average night.

I would imagine it was a weekly occurrence, though. Just looking at the handful of Whitechapel murder victims (not I didn’t say Ripper!), we have the people who knew Emma Smith attesting she’d often come home with injuries, one time even being thrown out of a window by a man. On the night of her murder, her friend Mary Hames was punched in the face by men. Frances Coles, on the night of her murder, as walking with her friend, when a man approached her friend and asked for custom. When she refused, he punched her in the face and left. Had he had his sights on Coles, and Coles refused him, as would likely have been the case, she too would have been ‘attacked’ by a man prior to being murdered by another. And let’s not forget that Sadler was likewise beaten up twice in the same night by a group of men.

Malcolm,

No, of course Schwartz is not my suspect. But imagine the Stride murder was the only anonymous knife murder that season. Putting Schwartz in frame for the crime would indeed be a viable and popular, if unproved conclusion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

this means little but :- in the dark, a heavy coat will make you appear ``broadshouldered``

Padded shoulders was considerably more common in the late 19th century than it is today. I keep mentioning the men in the Cutaway/Morning Coat, these too came with padded shoulders.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Mal,

The impression conveyed by Schwartz was that the BS man pushed her to the ground and pulled her either towards the yard or away from it.

Hunter,

Swanson stated that it was "not clearly proved" that the BS man was Stride's killer. That doesn't mean he (or the police as a collective) considered the alternative to be realistic.

Jon,

Swanson's police report did not contain any reference to the pipeman carrying a knife.

All the best,
Ben

i wouldn't trust Schwartz too much, but whatever he does to her is still consistant with my belief that JTR lost his cool and suddenly got very frustrated due to ....``i just told you not tonight, i'm waiting here for someone, please go away``.

what i'm saying is you can imagine this scenario so easily, he cant find another victim close by to kill, so he has to try and lure her away from this dangerous location, he's probably had a few beers too, so he's probably in an aggressive mood already..... well what! Blotchy face was semi-drunk too.

it could also be something else :- he did infact notice another victim close by a few mins earler, but couldn't kill her due to Liz hanging around the entrance to Dutfields, the other woman wandered off, leaving JTR very frustrated with Stride.

he then went up to Stride and said ``what the hell are you doing hanging around here for so long, get away from here``..... he then stomped off in a bad mood, changed his mind and decided to kill Stride instead.

i doubt this last theory is any good, but it seems interesting.

but i expect the big clue is that Liz was hanging around the entrance and JTR simply tried to lure her up the street, but she wouldn't go, her biggest mistake being :- retreating into the yard and unable to see if this semi drunk yob was going to return, this is extremely un- streetwise of her.

it's almost as bad as attracting attention to yourself, on an evening where you can be pretty damned sure, that JTR will be out and about looking for a suitable victim...... by say uuuuum maybe SINGING !

a woman singing late at night is like a moth to a fame, it's quite sexy, mesmerising and enchanting, especially if she has a beautiful voice, it is also very easy to hear at long range, it's a widerbeast to a Serengetti watering hole and finally, a man called GH to somebody like M.Kelly

[lynn cates]

new

Hello Malcolm.

"Blotchy face was semi-drunk too."

This is a new one on me. Can you direct me to the source?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"Blotchy face was semi-drunk too."

This is a new one on me. Can you direct me to the source?

Cheers.
LC

sorry, that's my fault, may have been semi drunk, but MJK definitely was.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Malcolm. Thanks for that.

Well, MJK was definitely drunk provided:

1. The testimony was accurate, and

2. No sham was involved.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Thanks for that.

Well, MJK was definitely drunk provided:

1. The testimony was accurate, and

2. No sham was involved.

Cheers.
LC

yea i try not to cheat, but i do get carried away with my theories though

dont forget that Kelly was also singing for a long time, plus had a reputation as a drinker, plus this is late at night and he had booze in his hand.

in addition, kelly was turfed out of a few rented rooms, because she and Joe used to get blind drunk and row together..... so they say, is this true? yea' i expect so.

it is safe to say that she was at best semi-drunk, but was she too drunk to be bothered to go out yet again at 2am ! well this is for another thread only.

finally, you can expect that the women that lived down miller's court, were just as useless as the other eyewitnesses.

[lynn cates]

I'm singing in the rain . . .

Hello Malcolm.

"dont forget that Kelly was also singing for a long time"

Right. But isn't that, in itself, a bit strange?

Well, enough. This is a Liz thread. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"dont forget that Kelly was also singing for a long time"

Right. But isn't that, in itself, a bit strange?

Well, enough. This is a Liz thread. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

no .my guess is she was showing off in front of him, whilst he was crashing out in Chill mode, maybe she was pretending to be a ``Strictly Diva``

[caz]

Hi All,

Has anyone else compared Schwartz's claim that Stride "screamed three times, but not very loudly" with the saucy postcard's similar claim that 'Number One squealed a bit'?

If we didn't know better (and I'm not really sure here what we do know for a fact) one might be excused for making a connection between the two.

I don't think, however, that Schwartz could have known the text of the postcard when he made his police statement, or that 'Saucy Jacky' could have known what Schwartz would tell the police when he wrote those words.

Of course, the killer would have heard the nature and volume of Stride's cries if he was BS, or if he had witnessed the manhandling and waded in to offer assistance. He could even have chased BS away as he had a sharp knife to threaten him with.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

compare and contrast

Hello Caz. Yes, I've heard that comparison. It was also suggested to me (by a veteran Ripper student) that the writer of "Saucy Jack" was trying to subsume Liz under the killing of Eddowes, ie, trying to get the 2 killings to dovetail.

My biggest problem is in harmonising "squeal" with "scream" and also trying to imagine a non-loud one of those.

Ideas?

Cheers.
LC