How about this quick theory!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garry,

No offense intended with the last post. I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but if you post on the threads where I'm posting and I feel compelled to reply, even if it's to disagree, I hope that won't be unwelcome.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

I would suggest that if the Ripper witnessed the BS encounter it would imply that he struck very soon after surely, and that would have give him time for mutilations.

Pipeman/Knifeman first chased Schwartz off, then returned to the scene.
He may have had to wait to see what transpired between Stride & BS-man, or if any witnesses came out of the Club to see what the scuffle was all about.
Pipeman/Knifeman may have stood with Stride in the shadows of Dutfields Yard for a couple of minutes, then he pulls his knife but hears the clip-clop of horses hooves.

Questions.
If Pipeman/Knifeman was the killer, what happened to BS-man?
If BS-man was the killer, what is the role of Pipeman/Knifeman?

Re: Schwartz statement.
If we assume the police version is correct, then why was Pipeman standing calmly watching these events transpire?
If we assume the press version is correct, why did Knifeman inject himself into this drama?

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

If it was pipeman surely he would be worried that the scuffle with BS man and his own pursuit of Schwartz made the scene risky. He could have just wandered off and found a victim elsewhere.

Unless he felt the overriding need to kill someone near the club to lay a false anti-Jewish trail - which I think is just way too improbable, almost fantasy stuff, and making more out of this than there is.

[lynn cates]

+ 1

Hello CD.

"I really can't believe that you are bringing up the Liz wasn't solic[i]ting argument again. Haven't we been over that like a gazillion times?"

We have indeed. Thought you would have been convinced by now.

Oh, well.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

notoriety

Hello (again) CD.

"what if Jack witnessed the Liz and BS man encounter? It might have occurred to him that this was the perfect opportunity for a kill and have it blamed on the BS man courtesy of Schwartz."

Very well. Of course, all that rot about publicity and learning curves and being cunning must rightfully go into the dust bin if that is the case.

But I'm game.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Tom Wescott earlier on in this thread said that people who dismiss the Stride murder as a non-ripper murder are influenced by certain previous books.

Hi Garza. If you read my ‘Exonerating Michael Kidney’ here on the Casebook, you’ll see snippets of what I’m talking about, and it’s not ALL from suspect books, but also tomes by Stewart Evans and folks of that ilk.

I sooo knew that Exonerating was coming. By the by, Garza, the books Tom refers too are the David Yost opus and the AP Wolf electronic one, plus Sugden and SPE's Tumblety book.

The cachous held in hand are (to me) evidence that she was strangled. If the windpipe is partially closed the body goes into convulsions and the hands clench. I don't think she was throttled though like Tabram, Nichols and Chapman.

Stride's face doesn't look like strangled. I see the cachous as evidence for a very quick assault, with restraining her airway by a stranglehold from behind (instead of really strangling her) while simultaneously pushing her to the ground and cutting her throat from behind, perhaps lifting her head by her scarf.

I have a theory but it is partially tested, I need a female volunteer, do you think lynn cates will let me borrow his wife for strangulation techniques?

I think Maria already volunteered, did she not?

No she didn't. Maria features uncontrollable reflexes which would severely get in the way of attempting to play the victim part. A couple years ago there was this one snowboarder guy holding me upside down in a simulated fight and I tied his shoelace on a barstool while hanging upside down. (The barstool in question subsequently got actively involved in the “fight“.) And in a real fight 2 years ago a surfer in front of me got a black eye (from a bouncer) while I didn't get a scratch, cuz I ducked down quick. Though I once as a teen got a serious hematom in the eye from contact with a fist on the face (during a ball game). At any rate, not a great idea to ask me to volunteer, cuz someone could unvoluntarily get hurt.
Best regards,
Call me Daddy

PS.: Just finished a paper on deadline for a conference, but still have another one to finish in the next 24 hours. Yikes.

[Wickerman]

...He could have just wandered off and found a victim elsewhere....

Unless he felt the overriding need to kill someone near the club to lay a false anti-Jewish trail - which I think is just way too improbable, almost fantasy stuff, and making more out of this than there is.

Hypothetically speaking, what if Pipeman/Knifeman had intended to kill Stride from the outset?
The scuffle at Dutfields Yard was just a bothersome distraction, but when a killer has chosen his victim, he will not be deterred, no matter what... hypothetically speaking...

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Wickerman
That would tend to suggest that he knew her or at least had been stalking her for a while.
Why would he do this in this instance?
It is pretty clear that Eddowes wasn’t stalked – unless someone else did that one, which I don’t buy into for reasons I and others have repeated numerous times.
Stride wasn’t that near where she lived or had lived so it is unlikely to have been a chance recognition.
These alternative theories just become more and more improbable when the most likely and obvious explanation is that it was a random exploitative attack along with the others.

By the way with reference to those who think that press reports about the Berner Street club would make it a known venue – that presupposes the Ripper read those reports and took in the detail and knew where Berner Street was in the first place.

When I go there now I get mixed up as to which turning it is off Commercial Road as it is all pretty non descript. I lived within a mile of it for quite a few years and then wouldn’t have been able to take you straight there (to Henriques Street anyway) without checking a map.
There are lots of streets in that area and in 1888 there were a lot more.
I would contend that an obscure Jewish club in Berner Street would be a known venue to people living locally and Jewish people living slightly further afield.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
That would tend to suggest that he knew her or at least had been stalking her for a while.

This is not theorising here, just playing with alternatives.
I have to wonder about the roll of Pipeman/Knifeman.

The man seen with Stride by Packer:
Press.
The man was middle aged, perhaps 35 years; about five feet seven inches in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking.
The man was about thirty to thirty five years of age, medium height, and with rather a dark complexion. He wore a black coat and a black, soft felt hat. He looked to me like a clerk or something of that sort.

Police.
Young man from 25-30 about 5.7. with long black coat buttoned up – soft felt hat, kind of Yankee hat rather broad shoulders – rather quick in speaking, rough voice
I put the man down as a young clerk.
He had a frock coat on – no gloves.
He was about 1 ½ inch or 2 or 3 inches – a little higher than she was.

The description of Pipeman/Knifeman by Schwartz.
Second man age 35, ht. 5ft 11in. Comp. Fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress, dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

Packer, at 57 years old just might have had failing eyesight (near-sighted, far-sighted?).
Schwartz gave a fleeting description of the 2nd man as he turned to run away.
If allowances are made on both sides for distance & poor lighting they just might have seen the same man.

Bearing in mind, this is hypothetically speaking...

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

No offense intended with the last post. I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but if you post on the threads where I'm posting and I feel compelled to reply, even if it's to disagree, I hope that won't be unwelcome.

I read your reply in the spirit it was intended, Tom, so absolutely no offence taken. And for what it's worth, I would never have attributed the Yvonne Pearson murder to Sutcliffe on the basis of evidence and mode of attack. Shows you what I know.

[Malcolm X]

Pipeman does not match any of the other suspect sightings and you can bet that Jack is an ``average `` of all the 5ft 6 to 5ft 10'' sightings, JTR will be somewhere in the middle.

Liz Stride looks like the early stages of a Ripper kill, before the body is moved ready to be mutilated, this therefore makes her murder look like someone else.

i doubt Pipeman is an accomplice for another reason, he didn't notice Schwartz, BS did, if so; he would've noticed Schwartz first and much earlier too, he would've said ``watch out, there's someone behind you``.

it could be that Pipeman was in a daydream and looking in the wrong direction, he also maybe had a knife for his own personal protection only.

BS appears too much like a drunk to me, JTR could've been watching all of this from range, ie Schwartz walked straight past him without noticing, or he was on the other side of the junction, or even following Schwartz !!!!!! ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it also seems a bit strange that JTR noticed Stride waiting quietly in Dutfields, if he was only walking past later on, maybe because of the singing and noise etc, that it is fair to assume that JTR glanced into the yard whilst strolling by, especially if he hated Jews.

It's important to note that JTR out walking the streets, is nothing like me retuning home from the boozer, i.e he'd be scanning all around looking for a suitable victim, but all i'm doing is making sure i dont fall over !...... this is more like BS, WITH THE BOOZE MAKING HIM AGGRESSIVE !!!

but my guess is that JTR targeted Dutfields, he maybe thought ``i'm going to walk past that Jewish club tonight, to see what's going on`` and all this BS stuff is like a scuffle outside a modern nightclub in say Bristol, a drunken couple rowing in the street, the sort of thing you see in ``road wars``..... i'm just trying to give you a rough idea of what i vision.

JTR might have seen this at range, whilst walking towards Dutfields....who knows.

[Phil H]

To be clear:

Pipeman does not match any of the other suspect sightings and you can bet that Jack is an ``average `` of all the 5ft 6 to 5ft 10'' sightings, JTR will be somewhere in the middle.

I take it, therefore, that you accept without reservation that the "sighting" were genuine? But what sightings - I only know of Lawende and Mrs Long?

Liz Stride looks like the early stages of a Ripper kill, before the body is moved ready to be mutilated, this therefore makes her murder look like someone else.

What do you mean by moved precisely? Rolled onto back? Or moved to another location? Where is your evidence that jack "moved2 bodies in other cases?

it also seems a bit strange that JTR noticed Stride waiting quietly in Dutfields, if he was only walking past, it does look like the killer targeted S

That sentence - if that is what it is (no initial capital letter and no full stop) - is entirely suppositional.

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

It's not impossible that the man James Brown witnessed with Stride (if indeed it was Stride, as I believe it likely was) was Pipeman. If we accept that Brown's sighting occurred just prior to Schwartz and BS Man turning onto Berner Street from Commercial Road, this would be entirely possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

To be clear:

Pipeman does not match any of the other suspect sightings and you can bet that Jack is an ``average `` of all the 5ft 6 to 5ft 10'' sightings, JTR will be somewhere in the middle.

I take it, therefore, that you accept without reservation that the "sighting" were genuine? But what sightings - I only know of Lawende and Mrs Long?

Liz Stride looks like the early stages of a Ripper kill, before the body is moved ready to be mutilated, this therefore makes her murder look like someone else.

What do you mean by moved precisely? Rolled onto back? Or moved to another location? Where is your evidence that jack "moved2 bodies in other cases?

it also seems a bit strange that JTR noticed Stride waiting quietly in Dutfields, if he was only walking past, it does look like the killer targeted S

That sentence - if that is what it is (no initial capital letter and no full stop) - is entirely suppositional.

Phil

no i'm not saying that Pipeman is a legitimate Schwartz sighting for sure, because we dont know if he's lieing, but this Pipeman scenario is such a peculiarity, that i expect it's true. nobody after this saw a thing until the cart arrived back at the yard, Dutfields went quiet, so my guess is the killer quickly sneaked in sometime after Schwartz had run off.

no i mean moved onto her back, rolled over, she wasn't because JTR had already left, Dead bodies are extremely hard to move on your own that's for sure, you can only really drag them.. none of JTR victims were lifted and carried, only rolled over and maybe posed.

JTR was learning from his crimes and later on trying to manipulate the media, but why there is no evidence of ANTi-SEMETISM in his earlier murders can either be due to this evolving prosess, or he targeted Dutfields due to something political/social unrest etc, going on in the Whitechapel area that he didn't like, thus he was getting fed up with the Jews..maybe the chalk was intended for the gates of Dutfields, but without there ever being a mutilation, maybe JTR was disturbed when he was about to write on the gates after killing Stride.

maybe he was after a straightforward killing only, plus the graffito, then to satisfy his sick mind, an additional treat for later on.

no, this feels wrong doesn't it, it looks like he killed Eddowes due to screwing up earlier on.

who would screw up ? either a semi-drunk person who miss calculated how much booze he had, thus got too drunk whilst out searching for a victim, or a sober person who was disturbed..

maybe JTR went looking for victims on the weekend after drinking and got too drunk by mistake that night, finally Mary's Blotchy Face was semi-drunk too.

i dont know, but whatever, this has to be mentioned so dont start posting in..... ``bla bla bla you're an idiot etc``

[Malcolm X]

Hi all,

It's not impossible that the man James Brown witnessed with Stride (if indeed it was Stride, as I believe it likely was) was Pipeman. If we accept that Brown's sighting occurred just prior to Schwartz and BS Man turning onto Berner Street from Commercial Road, this would be entirely possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

L.STRIDE was also noted to have said ``no not tonight, some other time``,
this was overheard as someone walked by