The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[Fleetwood Mac]

Theory versus evidence.Obviously the latter is preferable,but where evidence is lacking,it is common sense to theorise where evidence may be gained.It is then a matter of proving the theory.In the case of Stride ,theory must be predominent,as what evidence there is,is little and confusing.My theory is that Pipeman was more likely to have been her killer.That he was also the man seen by Brown in the company of Stride.That he was a person,who having shown no harm minutes before in another location,was a person she would have trusted after the incident with BS. A person who could take her by surprise,and the element of surprise,I theorise,played an important part in her death.But how to prove it?

I would fully agree that Pipeman is more likely. But how likely does that make him? Not very, because BS man is simply so unlikely due to the cachous in hand. Also, no other witnesses see a tall man with the victims.

It doesn't have to have been someone who rescued Stride, unless you propose that JTR's MO was to target victims who were being attacked by someone else.

Prostitutes would have been prepared to go with almost anyone - that was their business.

[harry]

Theory versus evidence.Obviously the latter is preferable,but where evidence is lacking,it is common sense to theorise where evidence may be gained.It is then a matter of proving the theory.In the case of Stride ,theory must be predominent,as what evidence there is,is little and confusing.My theory is that Pipeman was more likely to have been her killer.That he was also the man seen by Brown in the company of Stride.That he was a person,who having shown no harm minutes before in another location,was a person she would have trusted after the incident with BS. A person who could take her by surprise,and the element of surprise,I theorise,played an important part in her death.But how to prove it?

[lynn cates]

sing it!

Hello Maria. It's a song--became a slogan.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Is that a quote or a slogan? :-)

[lynn cates]

Coke

Hello Maria. I would have suggested, "I'd like to buy the world a Coke." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Finally, I KNOW you are not "knocking" my ideas. You criticise, but only to learn--as I do. Frankly, I criticise my own ideas more than anyone else could. Constructive criticism is a good thing.

Absolutely, Lynn. And we'll be researching things together. (Hope this doesn't sound too “Kumba-ya“ like.)

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think it is a natural reaction to try to catch yourself with your hands when you fall. So the cachous (which were loosely wrapped) would have to withstand the impact of the fall. But more importantly we have to figure out how Liz got from the street into the yard where she was found. Would she have gone voluntarily with the BS man who has just thrown her to the ground and threatened Schwartz? That seems unlikely. Now if she is dragged by the BS man and she makes any attempt to fend him off, the cachous have to withstand that as well. That would make them pretty resilient breath mints. To me, it indicates that she only took them out when the BS man had left the scene and she felt safe.

c.d.

Perhaps Schwartz said: "pushed her into the passage", as reported by The Star, rather than Swanson's version. It's a possibility.

Regardless, I think that the cachous being in the hand suggests (strongly) that it was a surprise attack, which in turn suggests BS is not your man for this job.

[lynn cates]

names and such

Hello Jon. If Schwartz is to be believed and his story largely true, I have no problem with that account. Lizzie works OK here. My point was that the 2 names sound similar, hence the purported mix up.

I was trying to find out what was the possible mix up in Wess' case.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

.... What I have in mind is this, "Lizzie" is a fair mix up for "Lipski."..

Hi Lynn.
As we all know "Lizzie" is an abreviation for "Elizabeth", but in English.

Schwartz, as we are told spoke no English, so "Lizzie" may not have been a familiar expression to him.
It is quite possible that Schwartz on hearing some foreign (to him) exclamation phonetically like "Lizzie" will associate it with a Hungarian/Jewish name or expression he was familiar with. He thought he heard "Lipski", because that is what it sounded like to him. And living in that area around Berner St. it might have been more familiar to him.

Elizabeth in Hungarian is "Erzsébet", and the short-form is "Örzse", a parallel to our "Lizzie".

If Schwartz heard the English "Lizzie" he is not going to think it sounded like Örzse, but it might have sounded like "Lipski", to him.

I think the man that Schwartz heard, actually may have shouted Lizzie, for what it's worth. It was only picked up by 'foreign ears', if you know what I mean.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

theory

Hello Maria.

"after a while there was enough evidence for a Helter Skelter, including the confession of an inmate to another inmate."

And that is precisely what I seek. But Rachkovski's role in other events came to light MUCH later. I can wait--well, if I were not so bloody old I could.

"Incidentally, I'm a follower of the school of letting the evidence guide, instead of forming theories."

So am I. But without ANY theorising there is nothing to drive the research.

Now consider this. Liz had 6d from cleaning at the beginning of the evening. If she were soliciting (as you seem to believe) and had any success, she had a bit more money when she died. And yet no money was found on her. The evidence is that she had no money. But the theory is that her assailant took it back. Theory, then, dictates her assailant was Bury. That's because he was the only Scotsman suspected and surely no one else would demand a refund. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn, after a while there was enough evidence for a Helter Skelter, including the confession of an inmate to another inmate.
Incidentally, I'm a follower of the school of letting the evidence guide, instead of forming theories.

[lynn cates]

helter skelter

Hello Maria. Of course, .0001 is considered probable. You mean likely? On what basis are we to judge something likely?

Here's a thought experiment for you. Recall the Tate slayings of 1969. The police were all but certain that the goundskeeper, Wayne Garretson, was the culprit. It was supposed to be some kind of drug deal gone wrong.

What would have happened had you walked into a police station and related a "theory" of helter skelter? Which theory was more likely? Which story was right?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn, I don't need a scenario about Wess' quote, I just need to check all newspapers to see how often it turns up, and if in varied versions.
Not romantic at all, just probable. (This has nothing to do with a mythologized JTR figure with a cape, hat, and a bag full of knives. These ladies were most probably slain by the same perp.)
Agree about the “more than 4“. Plausibly.

[lynn cates]

Fred and Barney

Hello Maria. Can you provide a possible scenario for a mix up? What I have in mind is this, "Lizzie" is a fair mix up for "Lipski." If, however, one were to suggest that Schwartz heard, "Fred" instead, I'd be just a trifle incredulous. So, could you speculate on what Wess actually said?

"the most probable possibility is that Stride was killed by the same mutilator who killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly."

Why most probable? Perhaps most romantic?

"You are omitting se[e]ing another 4 ladies, slain before and after her, AKA the big picture."

Quite a few more than 4, actually. But if you want the really BIG picture, perhaps we could start with the Upper Paleolithic chaps?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Wow, Lynn Cates said “broads“!

I'm baffled. What sort of a mix up?

A mixup as in Wess possibly having been quoted wrong – instead of having lied. Just another possibility. That's why I want to check all newspapers' reports for the Stride inquest. (Which others have done, and years ago.)

"The evidence shouts . . . "
Ah, but it doesn't shout very loudly, nor 3 times (heh-heh).

"that Stride was an interrupted crime"
What evidence? If one engages in a petitio principii and uses as a premise, "Liz was killed by a mutilator" then, of course, that must be the explanation.

Petitio principii, but due to the fact that the most probable possibility is that Stride was killed by the same mutilator who killed Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.

What has happened is that you have projected an opinion into the evidence

Not really.

All I see is a lady, with a cut throat, who died cachous in hand, face pointed east.

You are omitting seing another 4 ladies, slain before and after her, AKA the big picture.