The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[mariab]

You shock me! The Times unreliable!

For a start, just observe how The Times spelled some of the names of the witnesses, Curious.

[curious4]

The Times has been one of the notoriously unreliable newspapers in their reports pertaining to the Ripper investigation. Edward Johnston touched Stride's hands to check for a pulse, not “to see if they were warm“! Curious, if you recall the old canard about the alleged “grapes“ in Stride's right hand, there is the plausible possibility that Dr. Johnston contaminated Stride's right hand with blood from her neck when he previously unbuttoned her dress and checked her neck before checking for her pulse. This is discussed in an interesting article in Ripper Notes #25, which is an oldie (but goodie) print issue.


It's typically difficult to figure out how old bruising is, as it forms differently on different bodies. Have you concluded that “similar marks have been seen on the other victims“ without cross-referencing with the other inquiries?? Not good. ;-)

Hello Maria,

You shock me! The Times unreliable! That´s like saying that the Bank of England can´t be counted on!

And in answer to your question I never say anything without checking first.
The problem is that there are so many missing documents - no newspaper report is 100 per cent reliable. The point about the bruising is that it seemed to be considered important, perhaps because there was similar bruising on earlier victims - we don´t appear to have access to the full (official) autopsy report as far as I can see and therefore don´t know what Phillips (and the other doctors) omitted at the inquests in order to keep back some information important to the police.

Regards,
C4

[mariab]

One can imagine the confusion and excitement when Johnston arrived at the scene. He may not have considered contamination of evidence as he was not a police surgeon such as Phillips, but rather felt the need to determine if life was extinct

Absolutely my thoughts, Hunter. And thank you so much for a very reality-bound, informed post.

It is not known if Diemshitz was talking about Blackwell or Johnston. He may have thought that both were doctors.

From his testimony, it's my feeling that Diemshitz wasn't even sure which Doctor was which, Johnston or Blackwell. But it's plausible to establish when the contamination took place (i.e., just after Johnston handled Stride), as all witnesses after Johnston mentioned “grapes“ (=blood contamination) on Stride's right hand, while all witnesses BEFORE Johnston didn't mention anything about grapes. Tom has really thought this one out as discussed in Ripper Notes #25. (I apologize for frequently citing Tom Wescott, hopefully without sounding too much like Jeff Leahy, without meaning this in any disrespectful fashion whatsoever against Mr. Begg! It just happens that Tom has done some extensive and very fruitful research on this case.)

Crime scene contamination is still a problem today in many cases. The first people to arrive at a murder scene are usually not the best trained in handling such circumstances.

So I've heard.

Phillips didn't even know who had disturbed the packet of cachous until Blackwell was recalled to the witness stand. They {Phillips and Blackwell} obviously had not discussed it at the scene or at any of the post mortem examinations.

This makes sense, plus I find it best to trust Dr. Blackwell rather than Dr. Phillips about the body in situ (vs. later at the morgue), as Dr. Blackwell was the most experienced medical person to have been at the murder scene.

it is fair to conclude that the cachous was disturbed by someone examining the body and not (as it has been suggested) in the progress of her murder.

Absolutely. The evidence is clear that Stride didn't put up a fight (like, possibly, Tabram and Kelly) and spilled any cachous. The cachous held tight in her left hand postmortem clearly testify that Stride asphyxiated quickly – in my interpreration, possibly through an initial chokehold, then due to the cut to her jugular.

[Hunter]

That is possible, Maria. One can imagine the confusion and excitement when Johnston arrived at the scene. He may not have considered contamination of evidence as he was not a police surgeon such as Phillips, but rather felt the need to determine if life was extinct and then, how long she may have been dead. Johnston admitted to opening her blouse to feel her chest and checking her hands for warmth; though he stated that he did not notice the packet of cachous in her left hand. It is not known if Diemshitz was talking about Blackwell or Johnston. He may have thought that both were doctors.

All of this took place in the light of police lanterns; how many, we do not know. People were walking around trying to get a look; trampling in blood that ran through the darkness of the carriage wheel rut nearly to the door. Johnston could have gotten blood on his hand and not known it for some time.

There are many possibilities in a scene like this. Crime scene contamination is still a problem today in many cases. The first people to arrive at a murder scene are usually not the best trained in handling such circumstances.

Phillips didn't even know who had disturbed the packet of cachous until Blackwell was recalled to the witness stand. They obviously had not discussed it at the scene or at any of the post mortem examinations. But, it is fair to conclude that the cachous was disturbed by someone examining the body and not (as it has been suggested) in the progress of her murder.

[mariab]

Blackwell later admitted (at inquest testimony) that it was he who disturbed and spilled the cachous while he examined the body before Phillips' arrival.
From inquest testimony, Oct 5, as reported in the “Daily Telegraph“ reproduced on this website:
“Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.“

Thank you so much for quoting this from the Daily Telegraph inquest report, Hunter. I've always wondered if Blackwell might have also been “covering“ a bit for Johnston, esp. if Johnston disturbed the scene and contaminated blood on Stride's hand from her neck (i.e., the infamous “grapes“) before Dr. Blackwell turned up at the scene.

[Hunter]

We have the police reports on the Schwartz incident and we have the Star version.

If you abandon the official version in preference for the press version you either have some personal idea or theory to pursue (that the press version better fits) or you do not realise the quality of historical evidence. Either way you might as well give up on ever reaching a well-founded conclusion.

Amen to that, my friend.

It seems that on a couple of threads there is the notion that Phillips observed the cachous scattered about... with the assumption that the packet was not clenched by Stride, but the contents were scattered during the attack.

Phillips did mention this... but Blackwell later admitted ( at inquest testimony) that it was he who disturbed and spilled the cachous while he examined the body before Phillips' arrival.


From inquest testimony, Oct 5, as reported in the Daily Telegraph reproduced on this website:

Dr. Blackwell [recalled] (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I can confirm Dr. Phillips as to the appearances at the mortuary. I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand.

[mariab]

In the Times´ account Johnston doesn´t touch the hands other than to feel them to see if they were warm. Phillips removes the cachous from her hand and I seem to remember that the packet broke because she was clutching them so tightly.

The Times has been one of the notoriously unreliable newspapers in their reports pertaining to the Ripper investigation. Edward Johnston touched Stride's hands to check for a pulse, not “to see if they were warm“! Curious, if you recall the old canard about the alleged “grapes“ in Stride's right hand, there is the plausible possibility that Dr. Johnston contaminated Stride's right hand with blood from her neck when he previously unbuttoned her dress and checked her neck before checking for her pulse. This is discussed in an interesting article in Ripper Notes #25, which is an oldie (but goodie) print issue.

Incidentally, the coroner in his summing up mentions that Dr Blackwell could not be sure how old the bruising was. This, I think, points to the fact that the bruising was important, that is, that similar marks had been seen on the other victims.

It's typically difficult to figure out how old bruising is, as it forms differently on different bodies. Have you concluded that “similar marks have been seen on the other victims“ without cross-referencing with the other inquiries?? Not good. ;-)

[curious4]

It appears that Dr. Johnston, while briefly examining and “handling“ Stride's body, opened her hands, moved some of the cachous, then repositioned them in her hand.
According to Diemshitz:
Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats (...)
While Dr. Blackwell, who attended at the body as next, found Stride's hands "slightly open“ vs. “tightly clenched“.

Hello Maria,

In the Times´ account Johnston doesn´t touch the hands other than to feel them to see if they were warm. Phillips removes the cachous from her hand and I seem to remember that the packet broke because she was clutching them so tightly.

Your round (lol)
C4

Incidentally, the coroner in his summing up mentions that Dr Blackwell could not be sure how old the bruising was. This, I think, points to the fact that the bruising was important, that is, that similar marks had been seen on the other victims.

[mariab]

(...)seeing scattered cachous in the gutter. It would seem that Liz may have had more than what was found in her hand and lost them in the attack near the street.

It appears that Dr. Johnston, while briefly examining and “handling“ Stride's body, opened her hands, moved some of the cachous, then repositioned them in her hand.
According to Diemshitz:
Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats (...)
While Dr. Blackwell, who attended at the body as next, found Stride's hands "slightly open“ vs. “tightly clenched“.

[Stewart P Evans]

Abandon

Perhaps Schwartz said: "pushed her into the passage", as reported by The Star, rather than Swanson's version. It's a possibility.
...

We have the police reports on the Schwartz incident and we have the Star version.

If you abandon the official version in preference for the press version you either have some personal idea or theory to pursue (that the press version better fits) or you do not realise the quality of historical evidence. Either way you might as well give up on ever reaching a well-founded conclusion.

[Chadwick]

Forensic pathologist

Absolutely, C.D.. The “Lizzie“ debate is a very resistant old canard.



I won't be able to indulge in a comprehensive newspaper search before late June at the earliest, but it seems like Tom has something. I'm sure he'll clarify, when he finds some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott
I can see where C4 is coming with his idea that Phillips might have been comparing the bruising to cases from his past, based on the material C4 is using as his source. That's why it's so necessary to read ALL the papers who offered their own coverage of the inquests. Doing so, you will see that there's no question of what Dr. Phillips is saying - he noticed the bruising appear and get progressively more pronounced.

I was very impressed with Dr. Phillips' testimony and his skill as an observer in this matter. If you note, he seems to actually confirm, independently, Schwartz' account by both the bruises that appeared postmortem and by seeing scattered cachous in the gutter. It would seem that Liz may have had more than what was found in her hand and lost them in the attack near the street. I would think that Dr. Phillips would have made a fine forensic pathologist, had he lived in our time. However, we have the benefit of his keen observations.

[harry]

Fleetwood,
No I am not assuming there was any rescue on the part of Pipeman,or that 'rescue' was an MO that was used to gain victims attention.It is simply that Pipeman,in Strides case,was in a position to approach her after BS left,offer help,and if being the man seen in her company by Brown,being accepted as someone she could trust. While the question of height of Pipeman is something that has to be considered,it is only one of many quetionable statements by Schwartz that can never be answered as to it's accuracy.

[mariab]

I was crossing the street yesterday with the walk sign when someone in a car made a left turn just missing me. I looked at him directly, said "hey assh*le, and made a gesture with my hand. The look, the word and the gesture all went together. That seems to be a natural reaction. If Schwartz was intimidated, I have to believe that there was more to it than just hearing a word like "Lizzie."

Absolutely, C.D.. The “Lizzie“ debate is a very resistant old canard.

Hello Maria,
I say again, if and when you find anything which will clarify this, please point me in the right direction. I have read a good many of the newspaper reports but may well have missed something.

I won't be able to indulge in a comprehensive newspaper search before late June at the earliest, but it seems like Tom has something. I'm sure he'll clarify, when he finds some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott
I can see where C4 is coming with his idea that Phillips might have been comparing the bruising to cases from his past, based on the material C4 is using as his source. That's why it's so necessary to read ALL the papers who offered their own coverage of the inquests. Doing so, you will see that there's no question of what Dr. Phillips is saying - he noticed the bruising appear and get progressively more pronounced.

[curious4]

Quote Curious:
He said it at the inquest on Liz Stride - after performing the autopsy.

Curious,
the different newspapers have reported slightly different versions of the Stride inquest. Tom Wescott is absolutely correct in what he said to you last night. And at this point and as I've noticed on many occasions, Tom is much better acquainted with the entirety of the newspaper reports pertaining to Berner Street than myself or than anyone else, so we're really talking expert's opinion here. (While I hope to be going through these same reports in a couple weeks myself.)

Hello Maria,

I say again, if and when you find anything which will clarify this, please point me in the right direction. I have read a good many of the newspaper reports but may well have missed something.

Regards,
C4

[c.d.]

I was crossing the street yesterday with the walk sign when someone in a car made a left turn just missing me. I looked at him directly, said "hey assh*le, and made a gesture with my hand. The look, the word and the gesture all went together. That seems to be a natural reaction. If Schwartz was intimidated, I have to believe that there was more to it than just hearing a word like "Lizzie."

c.d.