The Murder of Elizabeth Stride

[Wickerman]

Ms. Mortimer DIDN'T see that other couple on the night of September 30, she ONLY heard about them from the neighbors. That couple documentedly went indoors around 00.30 already. Newspaper reports document Ms. Mortimer commenting on how quiet and empty the street was that night.
The Daily News from October 1:
[SIZE="1"]....... though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact.

Hi Maria.
I wasn't talking about the entrance to Dutfields Yard (where you show emphasis above), this couple were over on the corner by the Board School.
Actually, I don't think that is the same couple to which you refer.

The couple who were standing on the corner are possibly different to the girl who walked up Berner St. to meet her sweetheart. She doesn't claim to have stood at the corner of Fairclough St.

However, Morris Eagle commented on how busy the streets were:
"On my way I saw nothing to excite my attention. There were numbers of persons about of both sexes, and several prostitutes; but there are always a lot of people in the streets, and they are generally very lively at this time of night. I can swear that there was nothing in the streets to arouse my suspicions or the suspicions of any other man in his senses."

Regardless, as I was pointing out, if Mortimer could see all the way from No. 36 to the corner by Fairclough St. and watch Goldstein cross and turn the corner then there were no visibility issues that night.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious4]

Stupid mistake of mine, and many apologies. I actually KNEW this important detail, but I'm currently very tired and about to go to sleep (after working on polishing a long manuscript), with an eye leaking tears. (Not that any of this is a valiant enough excuse.)
Technically Schwartz would have been too new and unimportant to have (yet?) been a full-fledged member of the IWEC in 1888.
It appears suspicious to me that Wess chose to give the Echo an interview while pretending to ignore the name of the witness, as if he was covering for him, while at the same time directing the information leaking to the press. How the mistake of Schwartz supposedly having chased Pipeman came to be, I don't know. It reminds me a bit of the alleged knife in Pipeman's hands in the Star report, both as a possible augmentaion of “heroics“ supposedly displayed by Schwartz.

Oh dear, off sick a few days and we´re back on the french anarchists again! Can someone explain in simple terms for my obviously weak little brain just why the french anarchists would be involved? Were the victims perhaps secret agents? (very well disguised if so) The club at Berner street doesn´t appear to be very radical as far as I can tell: Discuss: "Why should Jews be socialists"? - not exactly earth-shattering! I bet most of them went along for the sing-song.

Regards,
C4

[lynn cates]

answers

Hello C4.

"Can someone explain in simple terms . . . just why the french anarchists would be involved?"

The simplest answer comes from Sir Charles in his October 12 memorandum. He thought that the "Double Event" was intended to cast aspersions on the Socialist Jews. Since Pyotr Rachkovski was just then opening up an Okhrana agentura in London and desperately needed the Jewish Anarchists to "misbehave," naturally a few of us raise our eyebrows at the prospect.

"Were the victims perhaps secret agents? (very well disguised if so)"

Not impossible in some cases. Have you seen the depiction of the mouchard in, I think, Porter's book? Regarding MJK, were you aware that she was EXACTLY the kind of girl employed by Sir Edward Jenkinson?

"The club at Berner street doesn´t appear to be very radical as far as I can tell."

Actually, they seem to have been the mainstay for Russian Jewish Anarchic Socialism in London. If the Okhrana could have shut down one establishment, that would have been it.

" . . . bet most of them went along for the sing-song."

I daresay. But all it takes is one, or one who wishes to implicate the many.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello C4.

"Can someone explain in simple terms . . . just why the french anarchists would be involved?"

The simplest answer comes from Sir Charles in his October 12 memorandum. He thought that the "Double Event" was intended to cast aspersions on the Socialist Jews. Since Pyotr Rachkovski was just then opening up an Okhrana agentura in London and desperately needed the Jewish Anarchists to "misbehave," naturally a few of us raise our eyebrows at the prospect.

"Were the victims perhaps secret agents? (very well disguised if so)"

Not impossible in some cases. Have you seen the depiction of the mouchard in, I think, Porter's book? Regarding MJK, were you aware that she was EXACTLY the kind of girl employed by Sir Edward Jenkinson?

"The club at Berner street doesn´t appear to be very radical as far as I can tell."

Actually, they seem to have been the mainstay for Russian Jewish Anarchic Socialism in London. If the Okhrana could have shut down one establishment, that would have been it.

" . . . bet most of them went along for the sing-song."

I daresay. But all it takes is one, or one who wishes to implicate the many.

Cheers.
LC

Sorry Lynn,

With the best will in the world it does seem very far-fetched. Why murder "unfortunates" to draw attention to any agenda? And less likely candidates for secret agents I cannot imagine. Given to drinking bouts, often without money and not select in their company - a few drinks or a handout and they would, I feel, have betrayed anyone.

Cheers,
C4

[Phil H]

I'm "keeping my powder dry" on secret agents and/or informers until we see whether more information emerges from Mr Marriott's machinations.

I can see two possible scenarios without stretching credibility too far:

a) that an agent or informer ran amok and killed, thus meaning he had to be covered up by the authorities;

b) that MJK was somehow involved with the Fenians or those chasing them (I base this possibility on her mysterious/seemingly untracable past).

I put no emphasis on either, they are just possibilities I keep n play.

Without much more evidence, I certainly reject suggestions of JtR having some anti-semitic agenda. The locations and the clues proposed are just too loose and too frail. I don't believe in conspiracies much (outside JFK) - cover-ups are something different (see (a) above), and if there were one they'd have found much more obvious ways to make their point.

Phil

[mariab]

Frrrench spyes

Hello Wickerman,
my geographical acquaintance with Berner Street is still extremely limited bordering on inexistant, but I hope to correct this at some point. There's a possibility I go to London in October, and I was very much hoping to see the sights, until now I've only visited Miller's Court (where it used to be).
Tom has located a newspaper report in which the girl who was walking around with her boyfriend said they went indoors by 00.30, rising the possibility that the couple that William Marshall saw might have been Stride – perhaps even with Pipeman??

Curious, these are not French anarchists, :-) but the French secret police spying on the London Whitechapel anarchists. Der Arbeter Fraint was circulating in Paris too. I just happen to research this as I'm frequently in Paris. By the by, a former member of the IWEC (named Eyge) states in his book that the IWEC anarchists “had a reputation for murder“. This might refer to the campaign against them, in which Stride's death got instrumentalized. Another thing often advertized in the IWEC's pamphlets was “free chemistry lessons for the public“, in which they were taught how to build bombs. There's evidence of this also in some speeches anarchist Rudolph Rocker gave. Lynn knows TONS about all this.
In 1889 there was a bit of a conflict within the IWEC between the socialists and the anarchists, and they were becoming progressively more radical. Even William Wess came to identify himself as an anarchist.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying I'm suspecting any members of the IWEC to have killed Stride. :-)

Lynn, thank you for responding. Something unrelated I was thinking about your disbelieving Wess and Diemshitz. Lynn, how about Ms. Mortimer having heard Diemshitz cart and poney arriving shortly before 1.00 a.m. – do you have reservations about that too?

[lynn cates]

Helter Skelter

Hello C4.

" . . . it does seem very far-fetched."

So did Manson and Helter Skelter.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Phil. I like your b, but I base it on the fact that Sir Edward sat down with his old adversary, Michael Davitt, in Paris, mid-October 1888, and spilled his guts. Apparently, Davitt was shocked when he found out that some of his Clan-na-Gael colleagues had been in British pay for many years.

3 weeks later . . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

inventory

Hello Maria. Thanks. I wonder if it is at all possible that she heard him leaving?

Nice work on the anarchists. Good luck on your next round. My student is now making an inventory for the Okhrana photos. Wish me luck.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn,
As in Palo Alto? For real? This is HUGE! Did you send one of your students there?
I have 3 days before Paris and still polishing the book manuscript, did about 80 p. last night, changed a chapter a bit, and haven't slept since. And still have about 200 p. to go.

[lynn cates]

you ought to be in pictures

Hello Maria. Yup. She's the same lass but this looks a bit more promising. Love to see a photo of the anarchists they were eying.

Good luck on Paris.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hmmm, capricious lass.
Lynn, your post title totally cracked me up.
And do you want to hear something scary? Haven't slept for almost 40 hours (editing the manuscript for 11 hours straight).

[lynn cates]

hope springs eternal

Hello Maria. I know the feeling.

I hope to be able to post the inventory when it arrives.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
Well, I hope it reaches you soon so you can go through it. Could you remind me again for which years we're talking? Are there lots of boxes with photographs in the Stanford collection? Are these just photographs with names, or does it also contain files with more substantial info about the anarchists under surveillance? I've been through a couple boxes including photos (like the ones you posted on the Kaufmann thread) at the Paris Police Museum's archives, where I've finished with the anarchists, as they didn't have too many materials. The real enchilada is at the Archives Nationales, still 10 boxes to go. Gonna order 3 of them in a minute, unfortunately the system doesn't let one order more than 3. :-( Hope to be going through them on Friday afternoon/Saturday morning. And I REALLY hope the boxes go on further with files on the anarchists listed alphabetically, while it's totally possible that the files suddenly stop and what follows is 8 boxes of Russian newspapers! I've stopped at letter “D“, so if you have any anarchists on your mind with a name starting from “D“ to "Z", please let me know, Lynn...
By the by, I slept for a whole 7 hours. Just woke up.

[Wickerman]

...Tom has located a newspaper report in which the girl who was walking around with her boyfriend said they went indoors by 00.30, rising the possibility that the couple that William Marshall saw might have been Stride – perhaps even with Pipeman??

Hi Maria.
Yes, we seem to have one couple standing on the corner of Berner & Fairclough, no time given, but about the time of the murder. And another couple walking up and down Commercial Rd. & Berner st.

"A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises".
Daily News, 1 Oct. 1888.


While the next girl only met her boyfriend in Commercial Rd., and was out a total of 30 minutes.

" From twelve o'clock till half-past a young girl who lives in the street walked up and down, and within twenty yards of where the body was found, with her sweetheart.

"We heard nothing whatever," she told a reporter this morning. "I passed the gate of the yard a few minutes before twelve o'clock alone. The doors were open, and, so far as I could tell, there was nothing inside then." "I met my young man (she proceeded) at the top of the street, and then we went for a short walk along the Commercial-road and back again, and down Berner-street. No one passed us then, but just before we said "Good night" a man came along the Commercial-road; and went in the direction of Aldgate."
Echo, 1 Oct. 1888.

Possibly not the same couple, no claim to have stood on the corner of Berner & Fairclough for any length of time.

Regards, Jon S.