If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[Tom_Wescott]

Cates and Mouse?

Hello all,

I've studied the case pretty closely and don't recall Liz 'playing cat and mouse games' with anyone. I do recall a woman who MIGHT have been Liz telling a man "Not tonight, some other night." One interpretation could be that she was refusing custom. Another might be that they had already done the deed and he was asking her to accompany him somewhere, to which she refused. Another could be that the man was not a paying john and she was looking to get rid of him. I'm afraid none of this amounts to 'cat and mouse' games.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I'm afraid none of this amounts to 'cat and mouse' games.

Of all the victims, Stride had the longest known record of being a prostitute. Hard to imagine she wasn't streetwise and cunning, which is far from playing games, other than survival games.

[lynn cates]

I've got an idea

Hello Robert.

"Can't imagine how that idea got any credence."

Well, I may have an idea here. Think, "male fantasy."

Record? Well she was branded with the label in Sweden. I suppose that once a whore always a whore.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Thanks

Hello Tom. Thanks.

(Cold yet where you live? heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Record? Well she was branded with the label in Sweden. I suppose that once a whore always a whore.

She was likewise 'branded' a prostitute by her own friends in the East End at the time of her death. She was a prostitute, Lynn, as were the other women.

Cold yet where you live? heh-heh

Biggest snow fall in Oklahoma state history. It sucks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Liz would not have normally played "cat and mouse" with a customer because of her circumstances, as Hunter pointed out, Jack was out and about and a few more minutes spent speaking to a potential client would make sense from a safety standpoint.

We can also use your argument that she was not soliciting that night. She might have given a potential customer the brush off as a result. But if would be smart business to see if he decided to make it worth her while.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

I just put a good Prostitute/Scotsman joke on the joke thread. I think you will enjoy it.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Coming soon to a theatre near you, "Jack."

Hello CD. That would work well provided that anyone had ever heard of Jack AND had there been a recent killing.

But,

1. "Jack" was yet to be unveiled.

2. No 'orrible murders by "Leather Apron" had occurred for nearly 3 weeks.

Now, here's an interesting one. If Liz is down and out and trying to "make ends meet" (Caz's pun--not mine), one might well ask, "But why? She had only recently been in a relationship which, while certainly not ideal, at least entailed food and shelter. Why leave that? To try her hand (poor choice of words?) at another line?" Notice that, "having words" is not a very good answer for, short of physical abuse, words are just words and will never harm us.

But if physical abuse? Well, that would take one back to Kidney again, and very few wish to go there (I certainly do not).

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Now THAT'S Scottish

Hello CD. Now THAT'S Scottish! I'll dig out one from my collection to post.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Hello Robert.

"Can't imagine how that idea got any credence."

Well, I may have an idea here. Think, "male fantasy."

Dear God. Took awhile, but I've finally heard it all.

But I'll bite: what does Stride's history of prostitution have to do with "male fantasy"? No one that I know of believes that whoring was these women's first choice of occupation, or that they enjoyed it. They were addicts, hustling for a dollar whatever way they could. And one of the ways they did put them in Jack's path.

[c.d.]

Hello CD. That would work well provided that anyone had ever heard of Jack AND had there been a recent killing.

But,

1. "Jack" was yet to be unveiled.

2. No 'orrible murders by "Leather Apron" had occurred for nearly 3 weeks.

Now, here's an interesting one. If Liz is down and out and trying to "make ends meet" (Caz's pun--not mine), one might well ask, "But why? She had only recently been in a relationship which, while certainly not ideal, at least entailed food and shelter. Why leave that? To try her hand (poor choice of words?) at another line?" Notice that, "having words" is not a very good answer for, short of physical abuse, words are just words and will never harm us.

But if physical abuse? Well, that would take one back to Kidney again, and very few wish to go there (I certainly do not).

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Liz certainly would have been aware of the deaths of Tabram, Nicholls and Chapman and the fact that "a murderer of prostitutes" had as yet not been caught. How recent did a murder have to be before it frightened someone who was a member of the group that was being targeted?

Are you asking why Liz would resort to prostitution at this point? That would certainly require a lot of speculation. We don't know how much Kidney supported her and even then I doubt that they were living high on the hog. She also might have wanted the independence that her own money would bring.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Also, If Stride had recently parted ways with Kidney or was about to, perhaps her reluctance to accompany this new man quickly into a prostitute relationship was maybe she was sizing him up as possibly a new boyfriend.

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello CD.

"We don't know how much Kidney supported her and even then I doubt that they were living high on the hog."

Indeed. But if, as you suppose, Liz was fearful and hesitant and desperate, surely that was better?

"She also might have wanted the independence that her own money would bring."

Quite possible. But hardly consonant with the claims of starvation and despair.

Some day I shall see a Stride thread and it will be fraught with internal consistency. But now dissonance abounds. (Forgive the mixed metaphor.)

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

As long as you are not comfortable with the idea of a known prostitute engaging in prostitution, you will have a problem accepting any viable and reasonable explanation for Liz's actions.

We also don't know enough about Liz's relationship with alcohol at this point. Doing char work or any other type of work would probably mean that she would have to wait till the end of the week to get paid. Prostitution on the other hand would give her immediate access to money and thus drink.

c.d.

[Hunter]

I repeated this several times before, but it seems to get in the way of real fantasy theories. As Tom stated, her friends knew her as a prostitute; it is written down; the police knew her as a prostitute; she was arrested in the East End 8 times in the 3 previous years for prostitution and drunkeness and went before the Thames Magistrate Court. That is evidence, not some male fantasy. There are many women on these boards that believe Stride was soliciting and they can't be accused of 'male fantasy'.

There is a pattern with all of these women who were killed by whomever that is consistant with the danger they placed themselves in to be killed by 'person or persons unknown'... whether it was 1,2, 3 or more killers or whether it was Leather Apron, Jack the Ripper or the Whitechapel Murderer.

Contemporary evidence is there. It is your theory, Lynn, with no evidence whatsoever that is fantasy. At least her contemporaries such as Thomas Bates, the woman from Tiger Bay and the others who knew her sympathized with her predicament of doing whatever she had to do to survive in a world that was not too kind to a middle aged woman who had few choices in basic survival.

Charring, sewing and other menial work paid diddly squat. She had been in a revolving door relationship with Kidney for 3 years that only kept coming around because of that need for survival. That she still tried to manage some semblance of tidiness with all that her life had been is heartbreaking... despite the alcoholism and self inflicted wounds that she brought upon herself in reaching an infamous end to her life.

That little rose backed by a fern pinned to her breast while she lay in a freaking gutter with her throat cut is the most heartbreaking of all.

Give it a rest!