If Stride Was a Victim of JTR, What Would It Tell Us?

[mariab]

Completely correct assumption, Sickert.

[Hunter]

It is a good assumtion, but it is just that.

I am inclined to believe, at least, that the killer of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes are the same man, based upon reasons that have been expressed extensively by myself and others... but there are some good counter arguments out there that an objective person should consider, even if one believes an effective rebuttal can be made.

To me, Stride's murder is the most interesting because it is such a conundrum. It is the oddity in a short series of murders that would otherwise be easily linked if not for the fact that the pieces, here, do not fall readily into place.

Long Liz's death was a mere asterisk in most Ripper publications for many years. The questioning of that murder has enabled it to emerge from obscurity and give it its due importance in the WM series, with the result being that much more has been learned about Elizabeth Stride herself, the IWMEC, and the police investigation as a whole.

We, as a community that often disagrees, have still gained a better understanding of the subject of our mutual interest... even if we have solved nothing. At this late date, that may be the best we can do. For myself... that's good enough.

[mariab]

I am inclined to believe, at least, that the killer of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes are the same man, based upon reasons that have been expressed extensively by myself and others... but there are some good counter arguments out there that an objective person should consider, even if one believes an effective rebuttal can be made.

The only valid counter-argument is the lack of mutilations like in the other victims, Hunter, and this is totally to be explained by Diemshitz and his poney having interrupted the killer, who didn't even had time to go through Stride's pockets after cutting her neck. By the by, and particularly as a horses afficionado that you are, I hope that you've noticed the importance I'm stressing on Diemshitz' poney, Hunter. I surely hope not to be the sole Ripperologist able to grasp how much quicker a horse would detect a corpse than a human would? And how easily upset/scared a horse can get when encountering an inanimate corpse?

Long Liz's death was a mere asterisk in most Ripper publications for many years. The questioning of that murder has enabled it to emerge from obscurity and give it its due importance in the WM series, with the result being that much more has been learned about Elizabeth Stride herself, the IWMEC, and the police investigation as a whole.

Believe me, Hunter, after decades of neglect Berner Street is being currently researched, and pretty intensely. Debra Arif, Tom Wescott, Lynn Cates, and myself are going through newspapers/pamphlets/archives and other different sources. Already new evidence and some new theories have been issued, and at some point in the not too far future different publications (both articles and a book) will ensue.

[Hunter]

Hi Maria,

Your are absolutely correct about the equine adversion to the sudden discovery of a human body in its path. From experience, I would add that any inanimate object in its path that it would not be familiar with (especially if it made the same trek every day) would upset such an animal - especially a pony, which in most respects are hard wired more than horses.

Diemshitz's pony likely shied from sight at first; its night vision being far superior to that of a human's. This would explain the instintcive head turn to the left. Then, it would flare its nostrils in an attempt to identify the danger by scent. The smell of an inanimate object would probably settle the pony down as it would not be considered a predator. The smell of an animate object - especially combined with the scent of blood - would have that pony attempting to back up. What it would further do would depend on the person that controlled it and the trust the animal had in him.

Obviously, Diemshitz managed to quickly calm his pony down to the extent that he was able to disembark from his cart and approach the body without having to clutch the reins because he was able to light a match and ascertain that it was a woman before the wind blew his match out.

But, this episode gives no evidence, really, that he and his pony had disturbed the killer; only that Stride's body had startled the pony. The killer may have been lurking nearby or could have been long gone.

It is just as possible that Goldstein's pass, a few minutes earlier, may have unnerved the killer enough to make him decide to bolt. Goldstein said that he looked at the club as he passed by. The killer may have imagined that he had been seen at that time. If. indeed, the same man killed these two women, there are several possibilities as to why Elizabeth Stride wasn't mutilated.

The best connection, in my opinion, is the cause of death, which appears to be almost identical in both instances and the fact that both women were of similar circumstances and killed in close proximity to each other on the same night. Any modern investigator, after eliminating obvious suspects such as friends, aquaintances, people still in the vicinity...etc...would see a link between the two based on the evidence previously stated; which is what the police apparently did. They questioned and examined the remaining IWMEC members and the people who knew Stride and came up with nothing.

Most 'domestics' were easily solved and the police had great experience when it came to that type of murder. There wern't many unsolved murders outside of the WM and the torso mysteries. Unless someone slipped through the cracks (and that is possible, but not probable) they were looking at a different kind of killer here... even without the mutilations.

By October, 19, the man in charge of the case, Chief Inspector Swanson, had apparently come to that conclusion as he was comparing the witness sightings of both murders and helping to coordinate the investigations of both the City and Met Police forces.

Certainly, I believe the evidence still points to a serial killer in at least 5 cases... but would be the first to admit that the reality is that they were killed by 'person or persons' unknown.

[Wickerman]

...The best connection, in my opinion, is the cause of death, which appears to be almost identical in both instances and the fact that both women were of similar circumstances and killed in close proximity to each other on the same night. Any modern investigator, after eliminating obvious suspects such as friends, aquaintances, people still in the vicinity...etc...would see a link between the two based on the evidence previously stated; which is what the police apparently did....

How do you feel about the nature of the assault on Stride, being basically a noisy fracass in the street in front of witnesses, as opposed to the quiet and secluded nature of the assault on Eddowes?

Also, the description of last man seen seen alive with Eddowes (Lawende's man), does not easily fit the description of any of the men seen in Berner St. involved in, or in the vicinity of, Stride when she was assaulted?

Regards, Jon S.

[Hunter]

Hi Jon,

Schwartz described his man as - age about 30, height 5 ft. 5 in., complexion fair, hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak.

Lawende's man was described as - age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium buld; dress, pepper and salt color loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; apperance of a sailor.

Given the obvious problems with eyewitness descriptions, there are several similarities there. One person could see a small brown moustache and the other a fair one, based on available light and the individual's perception... same with jacket and cap. The age and height are close. The main discrepencies being the men's build and the neckerchief of Lawende's man. Still, not that much different. Inspector Swanson, in his Oct. 19 report made note of that.

Its possible that Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride's murderer and it could have been the same man seen with Eddowes. However, I agree with Swanson that the man seen accosting Stride could have just been a drunk passing by and giving Liz a bit of a hard time. Many inebriated men were making their way home from the pubs at that hour and such an occurance would not be considered abnormal. Swanson believed it possible that someone else may have come along in the next 15 minutes and killed her given his belief that Stride was soliciting and could have been approached by several men. His opinion was almost certainly influenced by Abberline, who knew the district and its people well.

To me, the evidence shows that Stride was taken by surprise. She appeared to have no idea that she was in danger... so that would rule out BS man. She was taken out quickly and effectively... just like Eddowes.

The apparent lack of arterial spray in both cases from the one cut (from left to right) suggest that these women were probably dead or near dead before their throats were cut.

I think their murderer planned to kill them when he met them and knew how to effectively do it.

[Barnaby]

Hi all, just came across this thread. I believe Liz was killed by JTR and as I was reading everyones' posts a comparison occurred to me as a bit of precedent. In 1975 in Utah Ted Bundy for the first time had a victim fight him off and escape from him. Unsatisfied- just as the Ripper appears to have been- he killed a high school girl that night.

Also relevant is Bundy's own "double event." In 1974 he abducted and murdered Janice Ott and Densie Naslund from Lake Sammamish State Park within a few hours of each other. I'm not counting his double murder at the Chi Omega house at FSU because to me that was a single event.

[mariab]

Hello Hunter,
I'm glad we agree about everything, both about BS's description essentially matching the man seen by Lawende and co. with Eddowes, and about Diemshitz's poney. By the by, I had NO idea that a horse would be able to see an inanimate object BEFORE detecting it per smell!
My interpretation is that the killer got disturbed by the sound of the poney's feet and of Diemshitz' carriage, which would have been distinctive to hear, NOT by Goldstein passing by. As the Ripper wasn't at all disturbed by Cadosh walking up and down behind the fence while he was killing Chapman at 29, Hanbury Street.

How do you feel about the nature of the assault on Stride, being basically a noisy fracass in the street in front of witnesses, as opposed to the quiet and secluded nature of the assault on Eddowes?

I've discovered and have been further researching evidence that Schwartz was involved with the IWEC, and there are suspicions that his testimony was influenced/arranged by William Wess. Hopefully at some point in the not too far future this might get cleared, but it involves translations of Der Arbeter Fraint, which will take a few months.

[Ben]

It seems very unlikely that Stride should have been attacked twice in the same location by two entirely separate individuals striking within minutes of each other. If Schwartz was telling the truth, the broad-shouldered man was almost certainly her killer. I agree with Hunter, however, regarding the similarities between the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions.

I wasn't aware that Swanson ever suggested that "the man seen accosting Stride could have just been a drunk passing by and giving Liz a bit of a hard time", although he did observe that it is "not clearly proved" that he was Stride's killer. He also observed that he was more probable that Smith's man to have been the killer.

I'm not sure I would agree that Stride was taken by complete surprise according to crime scene evidence. The presence of the cachous in her hand is surely more indicative of preparedness for attack.

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

It seems very unlikely that Stride should have been attacked twice in the same location by two entirely separate individuals striking within minutes of each other.

Noone is suggesting this, Ben.

If Schwartz was telling the truth

I'm currently researching this and working on figuring it out.

I'm not sure I would agree that Stride was taken by complete surprise according to crime scene evidence. The presence of the cachous in her hand is surely more indicative of preparedness for attack.

The cachous testify to the fact that Stride was taken by complete surprise by the attack. “Preparedness for attack“? Surely you don't mean that she armed herself with the cachous to fight against the knife? LOL. I LOVE casebook and his unpredictability.

[Ben]

Surely you don't mean that she armed herself with the cachous to fight against the knife?

No, Maria, I'm suggesting that if she was taken completely taken by surprise, she would almost certainly have dropped the cachous out of blind instinct, whereas if she was fending off an attack, she could conceivably have clenched her fists and attempted to beat him off whilst still retaining the cachous. They certainly don't "testify to the fact that Stride was taken by complete surprise by the attack".

All the best,
Ben

[mariab]

Not if he attacked her with a sudden stranglehold, Ben. This has been discussed in great detail in articles and on the boards.

[FrankO]

Hi all,

I agree with Hunter and Maria that the evidence suggests that Stride was taken by surprise. There was no sign of any struggle, Stride at least didn't move any more after she touched the ground and the cachous suggest that she was not feeling threatened when she took them out of her pocket. Plus, when somebody slips and falls while holding something in their hands, it’s not odd at all that they keep hold of that thing during the fall. In fact, I’ve witnessed that on a number of occasions myself.

To answer this thread's question, if Stride was a Ripper victim, in my view that would tell us that the Ripper could be more impulsive, more careless, less in control of himself than we might conclude he was during the other outdoors murders.

All the best,
Frank

[mariab]

To answer this thread's question, if Stride was a Ripper victim, in my view that would tell us that the Ripper could be more impulsive, more careless, less in control of himself than we might conclude he was during the other outdoors murders.

Unless Schwartz' testimony is a fabrication (and I'm currently researching this), I completely agree. Among else, it's our mythologizing the Ripper into some fabled “supehuman“ figure that's preventing us from solving this case. I'm pretty sure the Ripper was somewhat careless, as there was evidence that he was quite careless at Hanbury Street.

[Wickerman]

Hi Hunter.
Yes, I agree eyewitness accounts can be notoriously unreliable, and the stated heights, 5' 5'' as opposed to 5' 7'' - 8'' probably came from the police. Citizens rarely think in terms of feet and inches, more likely they responded to the police by saying, "a bit taller than you" ,or "a little shorter than you".

The stated build of each suspect is a little harder to accomodate, one is said to have "medium build" whereas the other had "full face & broad shoulders". Not quite the same thing.

Then there's the jacket, this pic shows what a jacket & pants in "salt & pepper" colour looks like.
Which is consistent with Lawende's man having a "grey cap".



Strange colour of jacket to go "hunting humans", don't you think?

However, Schwarts's man had a "dark" jacket & "black" cap. And given that Berner St. was more open and possibly better lighted than the Church Passage sighting by Lawende, then it might be difficult to take the position that "it was too dark to be sure" where Schwarts's man was sighted.

I think it's a tough sell to propose they were the same man.

Regards, Jon S.