Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[protohistorian]

Very well said sir. I make enough mistakes for two, but luckily I am dim enough to not let stop me. Dave

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Wakey-wakey, Fish, you sloppy one you."

Fishermen, Maria, are VERY early risers (looking for steady risers). I´ve been up since 5.30, and that is just because I´m not off fishing today - if so, I would have gone up early.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
Fishermen, Maria, are VERY early risers (looking for steady risers).
Duh, I know that. Surfers too (depending on the tide schedules). Is there ice on the surface of the water where you're at, or still warm like in Germany?

[Fisherman]

"Is there ice on the surface of the water where you're at, or still warm like in Germany?"

No ice yet! We´we had the odd day of minus five to seven degrees Celcius, but right now it´s around plus one to five. May it stay that way! Don´t know if I´d call it warm, though.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

In Berlin it's at least 15°C and too much sun...
(as far as the Stride cases goes...). Apologies, Lynn, for directing the thread out of subject.

[c.d.]

Hi Fish,

The problem with the domestic scenario is that everything in it seems to go against what most people would expect as the norm. Liz has to go off to a dark corner for some reason, there is no argument heard, she is not slapped around and only has a single cut. Even though you can come up with plausible explanations for all of these things, they still seem out of the ordinary and there are just too many of them.

c.d.

[mariab]

I COMPLETELY agree with C.D. that Stride is too sudden and clean-cut for a domestic. No buildup, no hints of her being roughed up before the kill. Doesn't quite add up for a domestic.

[Abby Normal]

I COMPLETELY agree with C.D. that Stride is too sudden and clean-cut for a domestic. No buildup, no hints of her being roughed up before the kill. Doesn't quite add up for a domestic.

Hi maria
I don't think it was a domestic, but if I.S. is to beleived (and I do), then in my mind the BS man story looks like a possible domestic (does it not?) with the initial fracas in the street ending up in the alley with the murdered lover.

[mariab]

Hi Abby,
to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride. What I'd like to do (much later, during the winter) is to research BS's physical description for similar incidents. And obviously someone needs to REALLY research Schwartz' connection to the IWMC (which we're partly doing, checking out Der Arbeter Fraint for possible job listings and activities, or, ideally, even for names mentioned).

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride. What I'd like to do (much later, during the winter) is to research BS's physical description for similar incidents. And obviously someone needs to REALLY research Schwartz' connection to the IWMC (which we're partly doing, checking out Der Arbeter Fraint for possible job listings and activities, or, ideally, even for names mentioned).

Hi Maria
Why just Pimp/punter? Could not BS man incident be any male/female interaction that involves physical attack? Such as-

Female/prostitute/Stride with:

Pimp (as you say)
Punter (as you say)
Punter as JtR
Husband/lover/BF
Gang member
Overzelous religious type
Overzelous PI/detective/cop
Anti gov agent
etc.

[mariab]

Abby,
pimp or punter obviously as JTR. BS's physical description doesn't fit with Michael Kidney, but Pipeman's description fits with Le Grand. It would be nice if BS's physical description could get researched. As for an Okhrana agent, as Lynn Cates speculates, well in that case I'd expect him to be smart enough to avoid attacking Stride openly and clumsily on the street, in front of witnesses. On the other side, if the Okhrana (as they sometimes used to do) had recruited a certain detective agency (Le Grand's), it wouldn't surprise me that the attack was carried out so clumsily. It goes without saying that all this is nothing but sheer speculation and should be/will be researched.

[Fisherman]

C d:

"The problem with the domestic scenario is that everything in it seems to go against what most people would expect as the norm."

I have no problems understanding what you mean, C d, and we´we discussed this before. As always, I would like to point out that every single person is unique, so is every relationship between two persons, and equally every death. Of course we can ask for the norm, but let´s keep in mind that Jack the Ripper was anything but norm-relating to begin with! Not that I see him in Dutfields yard ...

One thing that I think belongs very much to this discussion, especially if we are to adjust to things like norms and such (maybe one should speak about prejudices sometimes, even), is that I believe that most of us would agree that people of different nationalities will communicate and interact in culturally inherited patterns to some degree. For instance, people from southern Europ stand closer to each other as they speak than people from northern Europe, Italians generally use their arms and hands more than Brits when communicating etcetera. And it may have perhaps have played some role that Stride was Swedish - Swedes on the whole are not given to flamboyant exchanges and loud communication. That, I feel, may partially explain why things went down silently. Just a suggestion, of course, but one that may have something to it, I reckon.
Apart from that, although they are not normative, I think that every nation has a degree of swift killings, unaccomapnied by slappings around - although we may have expected it. And if we are only to allow for the norm in peoples behavior, we paint ourselves into a corner.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride."

It would be an unusual pimp who tried to drag his income source away from soliciting, Maria! And an interesting prostitute who resisted!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

"Away from solliciting"? Fish, I'm not implying that BS was Stride's own pimp.
I've very thought of that, and there are 2 possibilities:
1) BS pulls Stride along, trying to get her somewhere quiet and private.
2) BS is trying to get Stride to Pipeman across the street, but is interrupted by Schwartz.

[Fisherman]

"I'm not implying that BS was Stride's own pimp"

Uh-huh. Then I guess it could make sense if he was trying to move her into his own economic forces - up to the point where he instead drags her into the yard and kills her, that is. Very uneconomical behavior.
Moreover, if he was a pimp, trying to "persuade" her to join forces with him, then I would be much inclined to side with C D and start asking for evidence of a roughing up.

...or are you suggesting that the pimp did his thing and left, only to be swopped for Jack?

The best,
Fisherman