A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Simon Wood]

Hi Observer,

After a night soliciting in Berner Street, Elizabeth Stride returned to her lodging house to count her takings. "Ten shillings and twopence," she announced to a friend.

"Blimey," said the friend. "Who gave you twopence?"

"All of 'em," said Stride.

Thanks for the alluring photo of Berner Street. It really is the Sunset Strip of Whitechapel, and must have been smokin' hot in the heady days of those big spenders at the IWEC.

Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello CD. Let's see if I have this correct. Liz works hard, earns 6d, invests in enhancements--but hasn't a clue about where the (paying) boys are? So, she just gives the IWMEC a whirl. Is aaht because a chorus of Tum Balalaika promotes libido?

How do I know about gambling? Try Rocker or Fishman. If your library lacks those, I can scan and send portions--when my teaching schedule wanes a bit.

Liz soliciting on my schedule? Well, that would be never. At my age, one hardly recalls how that "stuff" works.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

No problem Maria. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say. The above photo demonsatrates just how close Dutfields Yard was to Commercial Road. The bollards in the photo are of course on the west side of the street my mistake.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

Yiddish

Hello Simon and Maria. 'Twas Michael Kidney who spilled the beans about Liz's Yeddish (sic) (see inquest).

But here's the idea. One co-lodger claimed that Liz never hobknobbed with her own kind (Swedes). But another lodger claimed that she had people in the house speaking Swedish to her.

But whom? Was London a refuge for Swedes? What is MUCH more likely is that Liz was speaking Yiddish. And, as you say, Maria, if someone doesn't know the various Nordic tongues, Yiddish (about 85% German) would sound a good deal like Swedish.

Now, to whom was she speaking Yiddish? Once we figure that out and her work on Fashion st, I think we can get a handle on what Liz was up to that night.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Observer:
Could you tell us where the Dutfield's Yard entrance is on the picture you've posted? I can't recognize the big gate shown in the pictures in Ripper Notes #26.
To The Grave Maurice: Thank you so much for corroborating my theory about German and Swedish. By speaking German I can understand Dutch and even Africaans (which is the most horrible language EVER phonetically), but also some spoken Yiddish, which sounds very much like German/Dutch, and some Swedish/Danish/Norwegian.(OK, for the latter I've learned some Swedish, ages ago, thanks to a long fascination with Ingmar Bergman's films.)
To Lynn Cates: Lynn, if you're allegedly as old as you keep on claiming, are you to be retired from teaching soon? (I very much doubt this!)
To Simon Wood: Pertaining to Elizabeth Stokes, I gotta read the Stride inquest again. Stoke was been blackmailed? By whom? I know someone who, were he here, he would claim that she might have been blackmailed by Le Grand, the New Prime Suspect! (Just kidding, Wescott!)
To C.D.:
C.D., if I may ask again: What you witnessed in the street in D.C. with the fighting couple is eeringly reminiscent of the BS-Stride quarrel. Could you imagine that the BS-Stride could have been something similar, with Stride insistantly asking BS for money (as she habitually did, to all kinds of people), and he simply pushed her off to get rid of her? Not the most probable scenario, but I'm just saying...
I've posted so many short messages to SO many diferent gentlemen, I almost feel like Stride in the evening of Sept 30, that is, IF she was indeed seen with so many different gentlemen in such a short time period!

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

After a night soliciting in Berner Street, Elizabeth Stride returned to her lodging house to count her takings. "Ten shillings and twopence," she announced to a friend.

"Blimey," said the friend. "Who gave you twopence?"

"All of 'em," said Stride.

Thanks for the alluring photo of Berner Street. It really is the Sunset Strip of Whitechapel, and must have been smokin' hot in the heady days of those big spenders at the IWEC.

Regards,

Simon

Nice one Simon, haha. Waste of time Liz trying to extract the hard earned out of the IWEC boys though, Saturday night was subscription night.

all the best

Observer

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Simon and Maria. 'Twas Michael Kidney who spilled the beans about Liz's Yeddish (sic) (see inquest).
But here's the idea. One co-lodger claimed that Liz never hobknobbed with her own kind (Swedes). But another lodger claimed that she had people in the house speaking Swedish to her.
But whom? Was London a refuge for Swedes? What is MUCH more likely is that Liz was speaking Yiddish. And, as you say, Maria, if someone doesn't know the various Nordic tongues, Yiddish (about 85% German) would sound a good deal like Swedish.
Now, to whom was she speaking Yiddish? Once we figure that out and her work on Fashion st, I think we can get a handle on what Liz was up to that night.
Hello Lynn,
So it was Kidney with the Yiddish. I'll read the inquest again, also to find out about the trigamous, blackmailed Ms Stokes!
Stride evidently fraternized with Swedish women and the pastor from the Swedish church, who also helped her financially on many occasions. I'm sure that Yiddish might have sounded like Swedish to an illiterate Whitechapelite, but somehow I doubt that Jewish people fraternized with “gentiles“ in their private dwellings. I remember vividly scenes from A tree grows in Brooklyn (a few decades later in NY), and the Jewish were still completely shunned, unless for business.
I KNOW that you're looking for a rich Jewish beau for Liz on Fashion Street, who accessorily would have murdered her in Dutfield's Yard, but I honestly think that the timing is too short for anything like this to have happened. She might have had a new man in sight, perhaps the one she was seen drinking and cuddling with for most part of the night, but she never had the time to move in with him, on Fashion Street or elsewhere.

[Observer]

Hi Maria. I'm not conversant with the photo you refer to, but I suspect that the photo in question is more recent than mine. The local authorities have recently added a new entrance to the school yard I believe, it dosn't show on my photograph.

There is a photo of Berner street as it appeared in 1888 in the photo archive of this website. If you look at my photo, bear in mind that the corner of the wall at the junction of Berner Street, and Fairclough Street, (bottom left of photo) roughly corresponds to where the door bottom left of the 1909 photo is. In effect the man in the brown coat stands just by the door of the the 1909 photo. This building was the Nelson PH, in 1888. Dutfields Yard entrance can be seen just below the wheel. Hope you can follow.

all the best

Observer

[mariab]

Thanks so much, Observer! I just now realized that the gate is gone today! Your indication about the man in the brown coat was very helpful. Mostly I can recognize the school!
The pictures in Ripper Notes #26 are by Rob Clack, and the gates he shows are from Backchurch stables, which, he says, are identical to the original ones in Dutfields Yard. I totally mixed it up, I'm so sorry!
Actually it's a shame that I've been so often in London and never done a Ripper tour yet (initially I was embarrased!), and NEVER been to Whitechapel (!!!), besides having visited people in the East End. But I've never spent more than 2 nights in a row in London, and there was always business-related work and socializing to do.

[Observer]

Hi Maria

Next time you're over here give the Ripper tour a go, I'm sure you'll enjoy it. Of course the thread devoted to photographs of the East End here on Casebook will provide you with an idea of what the East end looks like today. There are also hundreds of photos depicting the East End as it was of course.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

links

Hello Maria. Actually, I'm suggesting that there is a link between her employer and her assailant. I am also suggesting that she had been working on Fashion st for some time. It would be helpful to find exactly what these links were.

Which Swedish women were speaking with Liz? I think the Swedish pastor had helped her only once or twice. I have the impression that the Swedish population of London was not large.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Thank you, Observer. As a matter of fact I'm toying with the idea of attending the Ripper conference in London on sept. 25. I would be working in Paris at that time, so I could practically take the Eurostar very early on saturday morning, and back on sunday evening, including a tour of Whitechapel with some Ripperologists on sunday. I'll make up my mind in the coming week. There are still tickets left.
I wish I knew London better, I only know bits and pieces, mostly around the train stations and the University of London! But I know Paris (of today and of the 18th/19th century) like the back of my hand, and also Naples, Rome, Venice.

To Lynn Cates and to Simon Wood:
I went through the Stride inquire trascribed on casebook, and it's not the entire thing, plus I went through a couple press reports (posted here on casebook). So far, Kidney doesn't mention any Yiddish capacities. And Elizabeth Stokes, unless she lied, seems to have lost her 2 first husbands in a tragic fashion. No idea where the info about her been blackmailed generated, but I'll keep looking. (I don't own A-Z.) If Simon Wood could help with this? Hey, hang on a minute, Mr Wood, how could have Mary Malcolm claimed that Stride spoke Yiddish since Malcolm didn't know Stride from Adam?!!

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Maria. Actually, I'm suggesting that there is a link between her employer and her assailant. I am also suggesting that she had been working on Fashion st for some time. It would be helpful to find exactly what these links were.
Which Swedish women were speaking with Liz? I think the Swedish pastor had helped her only once or twice. I have the impression that the Swedish population of London was not large.
Hello Lynn. Do you mean her “employer“ as a Jewish tailor, or her “employer“ as a Jewish pimp? (The latter surely can't have been!)
I'm sure that the Swedish population in London wasn't large, but if Stride went to the Swedish church, she might have met a few Swedish ladies, and would have enjoyed socializing with them. She was keeping her Swedish hymn book close by. And Swedish people might have visited her Café, in the years when she was doing better financially. I can hardly imagine that she would have invited Jewish women at home. Or perhaps only for her business in sewing and whatnot.
To be quite honest, Don Souden's old article about Stride's injuries has almost fully convinced me that she was a Ripper victim, interrupted.

[lynn cates]

Yiddish

Hello Maria. Michael Kidney:

"I thoroughly believe the deceased was a Swede, and came from a superior class. She could also speak Yiddish."

(Times, October 4, from Casebook.)

A Jewish pimp? I don't think so.

If you are convinced that Liz was a "Ripper" victim, well, OK. As you know, I don't believe in Jack the Ripper--but some of my best friends do.

As for interruption, well, it seems the story goes that she was strangled, forced to the ground by the shoulders, head lifted, throat cut, turned to left and, before she could be turned back flat for mutilation, the assailant was interrupted. Hmmm. As you wish.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
thanks so much for the Times report! I was looking around a week too late, didn't start with early October! (I'm trying to do different things at the time tonight, it's kind of stressful, and I have to postpone my departure for Paris for at least 3 days so as to be able to finish a HUGE amount of work on several projects, and the diversion of casebook somehow totally helps!)
Almost convinced (that Stride was a Ripper murder). It comes and goes. But mostly, convinced.