A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[Garza]

Hello Garza. The casual prostitute angle needs a good deal more confirmation than currently exists.

Why an anarchist? Well, a good many of them worked both sides. (See Inspector Melville's testimony that he had paid many anarchists. [Source: John Quail: The Slow Burning Fuse.]) (See also, the case of Evno Azef. [Source: Alex Butterworth: The World that Never Was.])

I could multiply cases like Auguste Coulon and even Charles Mowbray, but it would bore you I daresay.

Cheers.
LC

Maybe I'm missing something, why kill Liz Stride? Motive?

If an anarchist did kill liz stride and IWMC decided to cover it up, they are idiots. This person killed her outside the freaking club, lots of other alleyways to kill her. No-one knew but them, they had transport (D's pony and cart), could have transported the body anywhere, dumped it into the Thames.

Yet they start running, squealing and yelling for a policeman, doesn't make sense.

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Garza.

"Maybe I'm missing something, why kill Liz Stride? Motive?"

As I've said before (and as Sir Charles noted in his October12 th memorandum) the "Double Event" is an obvious--if clumsy--attempt to bring "heat" on Jews/Socialists. Which victim/s shall we select? Note that BOTH Liz and Kate worked amongst the Jews; BOTH Liz and Kate had/said-she-had ties to Fashion st; BOTH Liz and Kate have serious anomalies in a reconstruction of their final days. The answer is both simple and obvious.

"If an anarchist did kill Liz stride and IWMC decided to cover it up, they are idiots."

Well, if you are making a political/oeconomic statement, very well. Otherwise, why idiots?

"This person killed her outside the freaking club . . ."

Just so! What better way to have the police say, "Ah, so it was a Socialist what done it!"

"No-one knew but them, they had transport (D's pony and cart), could have transported the body anywhere, dumped it into the Thames."

Right. And Wess and the boys may seriously have contemplated such. But if you are stopped (given the smell of blood) what is your reply to, " 'Ere now, what's all this then?"?

"Yet they start running, squealing and yelling for a policeman, doesn't make sense."

Makes eminent sense to me. After a 10-15 minute delay to discuss the deep doo doo they are in, why not look like honest citizens discovering a body?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

"The answer is both simple and obvious."

No comment.

c.d.

[Garza]

As I've said before (and as Sir Charles noted in his October12 th memorandum) the "Double Event" is an obvious--if clumsy--attempt to bring "heat" on Jews/Socialists. Which victim/s shall we select? Note that BOTH Liz and Kate worked amongst the Jews; BOTH Liz and Kate had/said-she-had ties to Fashion st; BOTH Liz and Kate have serious anomalies in a reconstruction of their final days. The answer is both simple and obvious.

It is?? Just to get things clear so I know you hypothesis cos I don't think I heard this before - maybe I've been away too long. An anarchist killed Stride and Eddowes to put the heat on socialists for the Jack the Ripper killings?

Well, if you are making a political/oeconomic statement, very well. Otherwise, why idiots?

They were idiots because they made the most illogical choice covering up - contacting the police.

Right. And Wess and the boys may seriously have contemplated such. But if you are stopped (given the smell of blood) what is your reply to, " 'Ere now, what's all this then?"?

Smell of blood? Unless people in victorian times have the sense of smell of a bloodhound. Blood does not smell until putrid - and I should know - in my line of work I dissect animals from time to time. There is no chance a person could "smell" a fresh corpse like Liz on that night, unless she was completely dissembowelled, organs smell, blood doesn't at least to us humans. And even then on a fresh corpse the smell of organs is not overpowering.

Makes eminent sense to me. After a 10-15 minute delay to discuss the deep doo doo they are in, why not look like honest citizens discovering a body?

Cheers.
LC

Because it completely and utterly increases you chances of being caught for one. Even if they had dumped the body round the corner would have put the sent off them.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I don't see any reason at present to follow the perrymason line of thinking yet.

[lynn cates]

hypothesis

Hello Garza. My working hypothesis is that Jacob Isenschmid killed Polly and Annie. He was sent to the asylum on September 12. Simultaneously, Wladyslaw Milevski, under direction from Pyotr Rachkovski, was opening an Okhrana branch in London. (Sources: Butterworth, op. cit. and Ben Fischer's Okhrana book.) He needed a good reason as to WHY anarchists should be feared. (As Butterworth points out, the match girl's strike was far too tame.) The good people of the East End were scared out of their wits by "Leather Apron"--a foreign looking man, possibly Jewish. But if this was JI and he were taken out of circulation . . . . But wait? Why must he be taken out of circulation? Why not more killings perpetrated by a "foreign looking man" who might be an anarchist?

Behold now! "Dear Boss"; "Saucy Jack"; "the GSG"; "a piece of evidence found near a Jewish dwelling"; "a death near the side door of a Jewish anarchist club." This is all theatre and, what's more, it's made to order.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hi Garza,

Just back away slowly, don't make eye contact, and you will be okay.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

plus . . .

Hello CD.

"Just back away slowly, don't make eye contact, and you will be okay."

You forgot the most important part. Close your mind; ask no questions; stop thinking critically; read the FBI profile AND go back to sleep.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Sorry, Lynn. I did not mean to offend you. I like you but to be honest I think you have gone off the deep end. Once you accept the conspiracy theory, it grows and there is no stopping it.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

spoiled

Hello CD. Not to worry. It's just that I got spoiled by being given good, well thought out questions by Garza.

Heavens, I don't wish to sell a theory--I am the world's worst salesperson. But I do enjoy critical discussion.

The problem with cries of "grassy knoll' and "Conspiracy!" is that they stifle discussion.

You see, the conspiracy scenarios of the past had hit the rocks--not BECAUSE they were conspiracies but because of problems with the internal logic. Thus, PAV fell apart because he was out of town. Gull and Netley? Well, Gull was a septuagenarian and stroke survivor.

I would like the same. And so, "Lynn, your theory must be wrong given factors X, Y and Z" is fine. But I have never seen that. Indeed, all I see is, "Well, it is certain that 5 or 6 women all died by the same hand. Case closed."

Now, if I have offended you, I apologise as well.

And, just to set the record straight, some of my best ripper cronies (eg, Bunny McCabe, Corey Browning and Dave Gates) are traditionalists. And I am VERY comfortable with that.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

I don't agree that Stride and Eddowes were not done by the Ripper, but I believe that some of the issues Lynn Cates discussed in his post #617 (WOW! is this a high number, or what?!) should be addressed, and researched.

[lynn cates]

bingo

Hello Maria. Thanks. And that is ALL I ask.

(By the way, Professor T has another page of the AF translated. Soon be there.)

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
I also happen to believe that the fact that both Stride and Eddowes mentioned Fashion Street as their address is an innocent coincidence. Stride lived just around the corner from Fashion Street, and Eddowes most probably wanted to remain unidentifiable to the police.
Lynn, at some point we'd really need to locate Der Arbeter Fraint issues from the summers of 1902/1903 and from the winter of 1905, to check out for Schwartz no-first-name. Perhaps Dr. Turtletaub would accept to translate these issues as well? I don't even know if Der Arbeter Fraint was weekly or bi-monthly – I hope it didn't come out daily?!?! In early January I'll also check out if by any chance they don't have it here in Berlin...

[lynn cates]

reply

Hello Maria. Yes, coincidence is possible. But this is titillating, none the less.

The AF had a run as a weekly--for at least part of 1888. After Rocker took over, I am not sure what the frequency was. Of course, you can soon answer that as I hope you receive Rocker any day now--I sent it last week.

You are aware that I am currently paying about L120 per page for translation?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

Hello CD, Lynn, Garza,

Well here's my Xmas tuppeny ha'penny worth.

Lynn has a very good point in all of this. The suspicion against JI was from Abberline and two doctors, and Mrs Fiddymont. If those two murders are separated, then oh dear oh me, half of ripperology falls on it's own petard, because the "All in one JTR "didn't exist... and that will shoot down just about every theory ever put forward until now... and that...well....some CAN'T let it be the case.... a decade or more of researching to be upended by facing the thought that we have all looked at this wrong from day 1? Unthinkable!

A little breakdown...
For some, it is difficult to see that there could be more than 1 killer. For those who DO doubt, then Stride is the odd man out, not Nicholls nor Chapman.

So, take C1 and C2 away as JI's little offering... then we START in Berner Street... The killer of Stride uses a totally different modus operandi then the the one who is guilty of Eddowes' murder, and of course, Kelly. It doesn't change Stride's status as the major doubt of one killed by the same hand as Eddowes and Kelly. That same doubt is there, for the same reasons. So what do we have then? The unthinkable. The Whitechapel murderer got locked up after C1 and C2, C3 was a "slash and dash" by a.n.other, and we THEN start with Eddowes.

"Jack the Ripper" wasn't known to the general public before AFTER Sept 30th. For someone who SUPPOSEDLY wrote a letter or two to the authorities, he didn't do too much writing after Nicholls, nor Chapman... not infact, until Sept 25th. He didn't want to write in red ink, didn't want to show the sticky blood, didn't want to frighten the population straight after Chapman with wierd correspondance.....no..this man supposedly calmly bided his time with his taunting of the authorities.....jeez, the man is now in control of his future plans it seems... yeah right. Uncontrolled in frenzy, controlled in escape and cool when planning this. Not exactly a mad, can't control sexual emotions in the gutter-sitter is it?

"Jack the Ripper" didn't exist before he was invented... and that means he had nothing to do with C1 and C2.

There is no earthly reason that JI couldn't be the murderer of C1 and C2, and a darn sight more likely than Druitt, Ostrog and Kosminsky. Just because there were more murders after he was put away, doesn't mean he wasn't a killer. Look at the in depth profile by Lynn Cates and his personality and demeanour is pretty well spot on. He was identified by Mrs Fiddymont. He was seriously proposed by two doctors. And he wasn't suspected because he sat masturbating in a street gutter either....

That isn't a conspiracy in any form. He fits better than all known others. But if we accept this... then bingo... the great one-man manhunt is over... and some ego's will never, ever accept that they got it wrong all along. Too many crushed egos incapable of widening horizons and plausibilities.

I keep an open mind. It is very plausible. A darned sight more plausible than Kosminski, Ostrog, Druitt, PAV, Gull, Le Grande, or any other known suspect to date.

5 (or more) poor women WERE murdered. The only thing about a "series" in these murders is the time frame and location.

"Jack the Ripper", the one man raving loony knocking off women left right and centre in a cunning, daring, crazed, controlled, and yet frenzied multi-attack scenario is an invention.

As to conspiracy... it's a cop out word used to defend theory. It has no relation to this idea by Lynn Cates.

The question I asked (which tells me a whole lot)... a long time ago was surrounding the poster that was put up outside every police station in the met police area...

First of all, the decsion to print, on large posters and portray in a crowded, panic stricken area teeming with poverty, is crazy enough ("protect and serve" is the police motto isn't it?).. it would clearly create MORE fright and panic. Protect? Hardly.

Then we have the spectacularly simple notion that in that area, there was a very high percentage of illiteracy. So the police ask the "readers" to see if there is anyone they know who writes like this (the letter/postcard).. because they believe the killer to be likely the writer of the above...
I see, suspected killer because he writes frightening letters. Great evidence and analysis from P.C. Plod. And the poplace was asked to recognise the writing? Err... many of them wouldn't know one end of a squiggle from the other!

('scuse me sarg, but my old man has awful writing, is a bit mad and threatens me.. I think he may be JTR. I found some red ink on the kitchen table too...)

The police, led by the returning SRA, USED these murders for their own ends. There was more going on in Whitechapel at that time than ever has in the township's history. Dangerous anarchistic groupings had formed, and were strong. Parnell and the Irish situation was in the air, with Irish (and American) Fenians being shadowed in the area by SB. And if you want to know whats going on... you have the perfect and innocent reason for going into 50,000 houses. "We are after "Jack the Ripper" was the excuse...

How in heavens name would they recognise him on this house to house? Was he sitting at a kitchen table writing horrible letters in red ink? Did he have a sign around his neck saying, "Here I am, come get me?"

Lets think about today. What would it take to cause an entire police force to go in and search EVERY residence in your neighbourhood? Looking for a single murderer? In every house? It wouldn't happen. Nope, they used the murders for their own ends. All under the guidance of a Spymaster. Sir Robert Anderson. (Not a murder detective, please note)

That isn't conspiracy. It just blows a one-man killer theory out of the water.
And that would mean serious problems. That is why Stride isn't accepted as a "one off". It ruins all the preconcieved ideas.

To date, Stride, then Kelly, have been questioned most as to being "possibly" by a different hand. Oh dear. what happens if C1 and C2 were too?

A scenario that some won't contemplate. But let us just say, for example, that Lynn is right. Let us also say that Stride was a one off.

Then the focus shifts. Big time. On Eddowes' murderer. With JI out of the way incarcerated... we have someone who is playing copycat.

Yet another frightening scenario.

I dont know. Maybe it was one man, maybe 3. But keeping an open mind is essential.

best wishes, and Merry Xmas

Phil

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
I agree that almost everything concerning Berner Street is titillating, and thankfully it's researchable.

Lynn Cates wrote:
The AF had a run as a weekly--for at least part of 1888.
Thank God for small favours. And I just hope it stayed that way in the 1900s. I'm curious to see if they have it (or other anarchist papers) at the Berliner Staatsbibliothek. (Their online catalogue is not yet done for historical newspapers, so no mention of any such things in there.)

Thank you so much for having sent me The London years on loan. I expect it to turn up next week, between Xmas and New Year's.

Lynn Cates wrote:
You are aware that I am currently paying about L120 per page for translation?
You are paying almost L500 per issue?!? And I assume that you're having the issue from the first October week of 1888 translated? Perhaps we could convince Dr. Turtletaub to just go through the AF issues in question and tell us if she sees any mentioning of a Schwartz, then ask her to translate only the relevant parts, if any?