A Modern Day BS Man/Liz Encounter

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Maria. If strangled, why no protruding/lacerated tongue as with C1 & C2?

Unconscious? Why?

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

C.D. wrote:
It is not uncommon (and I speak from experience) for people to buy themselves a little treat even when it is not wise to do so from a strictly economic experience.
I can totally attest to this. (Esp. with the nice restaurants and fine stuff to eat here in Paris.)

C.D. wrote:
I still don't understand why you place so much emphasis on the direction Liz's feet were facing. No matter what direction she was initially facing, she could have been spun around 180 degrees in the attack or when she was layed down. I don't see how we can therefore reach any conclusion.
Just as I said in my previous post (and many times before that).

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
If strangled, why no protruding/lacerated tongue as with C1 & C2?
Lynn, protruded tongue happens ONLY by strangulation through rope, NOT with manual strangulation. Please, trust me on this. No personal experience (), but I've researched this thoroughly when studying the Ramsey case (which pertains to the murder of a little girl in Boulder, Colorado in the early 1990s). And I've talked about this with several doctors, including my mom.

Lynn Cates wrote:
Unconscious? Why?
Unconscious or semi-unconscious is how she probably fell to the ground. You have to ask Fisherman, Wescott, and Hunter on this. They agree with me on strangulation having taken place, albeit disagreeing (with me and between each other) about the details. There's also an article conjecturing about how Stride was murdered in Ripper Notes, in addition to numerous threads.
Now really to work out! (And no ropes involved, just free weights!)

[lynn cates]

rope

Hello Maria. Very well. Then the assailant of Polly and Annie had a rope.

Can you show me from the post mortem that she was unconscious? I'm all in favour of speculation but there is no sign of this from the records.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn.
I don't recall Nichols and Chapman showing MUCH of a protruding tongue, and I certainly don't think that their assailant used rope. It's true that Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman featured suffused faces postmortem, which points out to strangulation, but then again, they were plump and alcoholic, with a plump face in life as well. I don't feel like looking at their postmortem pictures, as I'm already in bed and about to go to sleep soon, and it's not my best idea of a sight before drifting off.
The fact that Stride lost relatively less blood than expected from her neck injury indicates that the cut was inflicted around the time of death, indicating that she might have been unconscious due to strangulation when she was cut. There are at least 3 threads on casebook discussing these details, on which discussions you have participated. Plus there's an article in Ripper Notes precisely about this, it might be issue #26, but I'm not sure, as all my Ripper Notes are in Berlin, not here in Paris.
Now I'm off. Goodnight.

[lynn cates]

Polly & Annie

Hello Maria. This is from the inquest.

Polly—“there is a slight laceration of the tongue. On the right side of the face there is a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw. It might have been caused by a blow with the fist or pressure by the thumb. On the left side of the face there was a circular bruise, which also might have been done by the pressure of the fingers.”

Annie—“The face was swollen and turned on the right side, and the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips; it was much swollen . . . ”

I would LOVE to see evidence about Liz and strangulation. But ONLY from the inquest.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
Nichols and Chapman exactly as I recall, but now I have to run to work.
I'll be back much later tonight.

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"How does Liz know in advance who is going to be a paying customer?"

She doesn't, but there are certain populations which are quite obviously more fruitful than others. Liz would know this, GIVEN that she is the astute "business woman" that she is sometimes imagined to be.

So:

1. Hanging about near a main thoroughfare where many dock labourers are getting off work on pay day--good investment.

2. Hanging about a club on a back street where many impoverished sweaters and greeners are hanging on every work of a fuzzy headed, steel rimmed spectacle wearing anarchist discussing the virtues of Mikhail Bakunin--not such a good investment.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

That approach is why you see so many empty cabs waiting (and waiting) in line at airports. They figured out that the airport is a great place to pick up fares but so did all the other cab drivers.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lynn and C.D. The dock workers had their pick of girls, particularly the younger, prettier ones. That's how dock worker Barnett ended up with Mary Kelly, for instance. For Stride to have a chance she would not be able to work those prime markets.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

Exactly Tom,

Liz Stride had more knowledge than most of the other 'canonicals' about the activities just north of the docks - the infamous Tiger Bay and the old Ratcliff Highway area. She had lived in the Poplar area for many years before, near the East India Docks. She and Kidney had initially lived on Devonshire Street, south of Commercial Road. A former 'tigress' was interviewed and featured in the press on Oct 3 and it it quite evident that she was well aware of Stride's curcumstances and the fact that Stride was known in the area. Brunswick St. (Tiger Bay) was just a stone's throw (borrowing one of your expressions, Tom... stay back Caz) from Berner St.

Thus... Berner St. After the pubs closed, prostitutes filtered into the byways leading to the destinations of seamen, dockworkers, etc.. to intercept them on their way to their lodgings. The club was only incidental in the fact that it appeared a safe place to be at that hour while still providing the chance to solicit men taking the backstreets home.

Stride was no stranger to the area ( despite what the club members said) and the little alley ( Dutfields Yard) was seldom used after the Club's business closed. The few people who may have passed through would have paid no mind to a prostitute doing her business. Everyone was aware of it and used to it. Many people who can't imagine this don't understand the conditions or the culture that existed in that area at that time.

Considering the turmoil that the murders had caused, her location at that place at that time for the reason's that the police and her aquantances were aware of offered a sense of security that was, of course, found to be misplaced, but understandable considering the choices these women had to make under the circumstances they found themselves in.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11202

[Garza]

I would LOVE to see evidence about Liz and strangulation. But ONLY from the inquest.

Cheers.
LC

LC, strangulation can be easily overlooked, especially in those days. Even nowadays forensic scientists sometimes have to use radiology to detect strangulation. Only 25% of strangulation victims have obvious external strangulation marks.

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello Garza. You are quite right that one can be strangled without any signs. But it may be that such an observation misses my point.

Let's try an analogy. There are some poisons extremely difficult to detect. And for all we know, one or more of the C5 may have, through one means or another, ingested such a poison before dying.

But my question is this. Why should we make such an assumption? Why is it needed?

In Liz's case, what earthly reason have we to:

1. Assume she was strangled?

or

2. Assume she was unconscious?

The only reason I can find is that we are trying to get her death to fit into some sort of pre-conceived mould.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

What's the problem with “just a stone's throw“ that Caz doesn't like it? Too American for her? There's also “as a crow flies“. I think it's a Southern expression?
Dutfield's Yard as a location (especially with the gate in close proximity, as a quick escape route) is not just very similar, but almost identical to the C5 murder locations.

[Hunter]

LOL...

Yes, Maria, it is an American expression... kind of like 'country mile', but some seem to want it to fit into exact measurments.

[mariab]

Hi Hunter.
For some reason (probably because I essentially learned my English from the movies and rock music), I feel at home with most American expressions. I like British ones too, particularly cockney and mockney, but as for getting them, most often it requires some amount of explaining from the locals. But “country mile“ I gotta admit I've never heard of (or noticed).